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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

Old 26th Jun 2017, 20:52
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Chronus

You aren't listening to me. I posted details of a fatal helicopter crash, after which the pilot went to prison for 18 months. Nothing whatsoever to do with Dave Reid's contribution.

Your assertion/assumption is wrong. Maybe you have an agenda/vested interest?

I have no view whatsoever on Shoreham.

Maybe I will be moderated again. I have no idea what the problem was first time round!

Last edited by 4468; 27th Jun 2017 at 00:32.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 12:13
  #862 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus
With the chopper crash mentioned by Dave Reid, that now makes two attempts at manslaughter charges in both of which the CPS failed to secure a conviction..

Wasn't there another case involving a hunt saboteur and a microlight?
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 12:17
  #863 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by H Peacock
The cases mentioned may well not have resulted in a guilty verdict, but that certainly doesn't mean that the individuals concerned were innocent...

In the UK "not guilty" means innocent of the charge, doesn't it?
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 12:19
  #864 (permalink)  

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Posidrive. As far as I'm aware, that is the case in England. Scotland has an additional verdict of "not proven". It doesn't mean you're innocent, but they cannot secure a guilty verdict.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 13:02
  #865 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Posidrive
Wasn't there another case involving a hunt saboteur and a microlight.
Gyroplane - hunt saboteur tried for murder but found not guilty by the jury.

Last edited by treadigraph; 27th Jun 2017 at 14:44. Reason: Wrongly quoted as Herod!
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 13:04
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Originally Posted by Herod
Posidrive. As far as I'm aware, that is the case in England. Scotland has an additional verdict of "not proven". It doesn't mean you're innocent, but they cannot secure a guilty verdict.
Wrong!

In Scottish law there is strictly no distinction between a not guilty and not proven verdict. The reason for this oddity is historic and beyond the scope of this forum.

The "not proven" verdict is however widely mis-understood (in Scotland) by the general public as being that the accused was guilty, but got away with their offence.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 13:50
  #867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
Gyroplane - hunt saboteur tried for murder but found not guilty by the jury.
He was initially arrested on suspicion of murder, but was tried and acquitted on a charge of manslaughter.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 13:55
  #868 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pozidrive
In the UK "not guilty" means innocent of the charge, doesn't it?
No, generally it means "not proved beyond reasonable doubt of guilt", although there are other grounds for acquittal. The defendant's status is the same as what it was pre-trial - "presumed innocent". Under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, a person can be retried for the same crime under certain conditions.

In some jurisdictions (e. Italy), a defendant can be acquitted with a verdict that is equivalent to "innocent", e.g the court found that someone else committed the crime, but there is no equivalent in the UK (including Scotland).
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 14:03
  #869 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DANbudgieman
Wrong!

In Scottish law there is strictly no distinction between a not guilty and not proven verdict. The reason for this oddity is historic and beyond the scope of this forum.

The "not proven" verdict is however widely mis-understood (in Scotland) by the general public as being that the accused was guilty, but got away with their offence.
Indeed; widely considered, in Scotland, to mean: 'Not guilty - aye, right!'
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 15:01
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Originally Posted by Herod
Posidrive. As far as I'm aware, that is the case in England. Scotland has an additional verdict of "not proven". It doesn't mean you're innocent, but they cannot secure a guilty verdict.


Thank you, I should have said England and Wales instead of UK. I was aware that NI law is slightly different and Scottish law very different.

Last edited by Pozidrive; 27th Jun 2017 at 15:05. Reason: spelling/grammar
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 19:36
  #871 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 4468
Chronus

You aren't listening to me. I posted details of a fatal helicopter crash, after which the pilot went to prison for 18 months. Nothing whatsoever to do with Dave Reid's contribution.

Your assertion/assumption is wrong. Maybe you have an agenda/vested interest?

I have no view whatsoever on Shoreham.

Maybe I will be moderated again. I have no idea what the problem was first time round!
I have got the intercom on full volume listening intently with agenda on my knee board, yet cannot detect any noises about a UK conviction with 18 months porridge diet for a chopper pilot. Perhaps double four six eight could give us some victor vectors. Would suggest standard RT phraseology best for his tx, might avoid getting it jammed again.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 20:07
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https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/h...706384.article
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 20:38
  #873 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you 4468. That piece of news would seem to improve the betting odds for the CPS.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 22:18
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No worries.

Just to be totally clear. I met the pilot in the helicopter accident I referred to. Shortly before his accident. Coincidentally, I also know the Shoreham pilot. I am absolutely not wishing to connect the two incidents in any way.

I have no doubt whatsoever, I am not informing the CPS of anything they were otherwise unaware of!
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 16:51
  #875 (permalink)  
 
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Ban on Hunter flying lifted...

CAA linky...
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 21:06
  #876 (permalink)  
 
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The piece that matters is :
"This action is a result of the CAA concluding there were no airworthiness issues relating to the Hawker Hunter aircraft that caused or contributed to the accident. This is based on our own extensive review and the AAIB’s final accident report."
Fairly conclusive that there was nothing wrong with the machine and all its equipment.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 23:21
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The important words are " that caused or contributed to the accident" . Does not mean that there were no other airworthiness issues.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 11:39
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Still needs to be put in the context of an aircraft with no FDR so no proof but old fashioned investigation gives the best possible opinion within the constaints as the report says , just to give the benefit of doubt. Be interesting after reading the report if there will be any airworthy Hunters to fly excepting the ones still operating under the military system from Scampton. Will the manufacturer supply seat cartridges now ? The engine inspection issues mean the chances of seeing an aircraft powered by a 100 series Avon is pretty remote.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 11:39
  #879 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus
...
Fairly conclusive that there was nothing wrong with the machine and all its equipment.

Not at all, the AAIB report found a lot of things wrong with the machine and its equipment.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 11:43
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Noteworthy that Hunters are to be subjected to an enhanced maintenance maintenance and inspection regime before any permit to fly is issued.
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