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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

Old 16th Jun 2017, 21:21
  #801 (permalink)  
 
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[quote The organisers of a display have a responsibilty to try and ensure the safety of spectators at the display. They cannot be expected to take responsibility for unforseeable events that take place outside the display area.][/quote]

Do they not have a greater responsibility to members of the public who have not chosen to attend their event? Travelers on a public road.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 21:35
  #802 (permalink)  
 
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Don't know about greater, certainly an equal responsibility.
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Old 17th Jun 2017, 07:11
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
Do they not have a greater responsibility to members of the public who have not chosen to attend their event? Travelers on a public road.
Where do you draw the line? Within some notional distance from the airshow boundary/datum the airshow has some level of responsibility, outwith, they don't? How do you control/police/enforce excursions from the 'box'? If the box is deemed limitless then air displays in the UK are history.

It seems to me that at some point responsibility for what ensues is handed to/assumed by the pilot and in a fast moving situation that responsibility for the outcome becomes absolute.
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Old 17th Jun 2017, 12:23
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Health and Safety regulations are not restricted to people directly involved to an event or site, responsibility applies to people in the surrounding area. This is why those running the fireworks event associated with the M5 crash were brought to trial for HS breaches, although the case was thrown out due lack of evidence.
In principle of law, event organisers could be held responsible for what happens to people outside the designated display area. Guilt would hinge on whether risk could be "reasonably expected".
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Old 17th Jun 2017, 23:00
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Caveat: I have only flown aeros in JP, Chip, Jungmann and NEVER LL.
When this thread started I had the feeling that the FJ frat was closing ranks to protect one of their own but, in deference to those who'd flown LL aeros in FJs, I kept my counsel.
I now have to say that I think that entering a manoeuvre too low, too slow and climbing to the 'start point' was not a great idea, in fact a very basic error.
How could . . . . etc.
Probably there but for the grace etc.
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 01:14
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You are about correct there Basil. There are 'gates' set for aerobatics and you must respect them, but humans always think that they can do that little bit better and beat the laws of physics. It sometimes works but not always. People gamble in Las Vegas thinking that they can beat the bank, occasionally they do, but not very often.
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 10:05
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Various shortcomings have been discovered during the course of the AAIB investigation concerning safety procedures, but even if these had all been correctly followed, it would not have altered the outcome of this specific incident.
How can you be sure of that?

Page 25 of the Shoreham Special Bulletin (Link below) states:

"In 2014 a display by the pilot of G-BXFI, in another aircraft type and at a different venue, was stopped by the FDD of that display following concerns about the execution of a maneuver.
A CAA Flight Standards Officer (FSO) was present but did not witness the occurrence.
Following an informal discussion with the pilot later that day the CAA took no further action and did not formally record the occurrence.
The occurrence was not otherwise investigated and was not reported to the AAIB.
It may not have been apparent to those involved that the duty to report could apply to such occurrences at flying displays or they may have concluded that this occurrence was not reportable.
Nevertheless, the occurrence could have provided an opportunity to explore the pilotís continued competence"

https://assets.publishing.service.go...016_G-BXFI.pdf

The CAA do not have to "witness" any event to take action. Notwithstanding, a YouTube video is available of the display:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHngQ8TmqU4

Revocation/suspension of display permit pending assessment, or at minimum, an official letter of warning/caution may have indeed prevented the Shoreham tragedy.

The CAA had the first opportunity to take preventative action, but failed in its duty of care and duty of competence.
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 17:57
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What ! "fly better next time ". That`s one hell of a lesson, eleven dead, sixteen injured and a lesson learned to fly better next time and not to do it again.
Why because on that and a previous occasion did not demonstrate more precise skill. That which is a must is judgement, that`s number one. Skill is built on a solid foundation of judgement.

So is Step Turn actually saying it is his hope that once this pilot recovers from amnesia,he will go over all that he did wrong and get back on the display circus and live happily thereafter. I`d be interested to know if he has his day job back.
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 17:59
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Let's not get too personal please
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 18:13
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So is Step Turn actually saying it is his hope that once this pilot recovers from amnesia,he will go over all that he did wrong and get back on the display circus and live happily thereafter. I`d be interested to know if he has his day job back.
He already decided to retire from BA prior to the accident so there is no 'day job'.

The comments above imply that AH was some kind of maverick, he was not. Those of us that know him were shocked that he was the pilot in this dreadful tragedy.

Personally I doubt that he will ever fly again.

If Chronus seriously believes the amnesia is fake, which is implied in his snide statement, then it says more about him than AH.
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Direct Bondi

The CAA do not have to "witness" any event to take action. Notwithstanding, a YouTube video is available of the display:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHngQ8TmqU4
This, however, is not the footage of the flight mentioned in the report. It's the display of Sunday, September 21st, 2014 - whereas the flight mentioned in the report refered to the display on Saturday, September 20th:
Shoreham crash pilot Andy Hill 'was involved in another air incident a year earlier' - Telegraph
"During the display by a Jet Provost T5 at the Southport Airshow on 20 September 2014, the aircraft was observed to be inside the lateral separation minima for the event and also below the minimum height stipulated in the Article 162 Permission issued by the CAA. "A 'stop' call was immediately issued by the Flying Display Director (FDD) on the display radio frequency and the flying display was terminated.
This video shows the display of Saturday, September 20th - and likely the maneuver which triggered the FDD to call "stop":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhLSHpeiE8
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 08:44
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Originally Posted by Step Turn
Perhaps I left too much room for interpretation in what I wrote....
Your post was perfectly clear in that you were referring to the Jet Provost display not the Hawker Hunter display. And what's not to agree with this?
Originally Posted by Step Turn
I would have hoped that he would have examined his own performance, and committed to himself to fly better next time.

Last edited by Chuck Glider; 19th Jun 2017 at 16:21. Reason: Removal of double negative.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 14:12
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The CAA publications below were applicable in 2015. Both publications have since been amended and new editions published.

CAP 1047 - Civil Air Displays, A Guide for Pilots:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...r%20pilots.pdf

CAP 403 - Flying Displays and Special Events: A Guide to Safety and Administrative Arrangements:

http://www.acro.co.uk/files/CAP403.pdf

Chapter 6 - Pilot Display Competency
2.4.6. DAEs [Display Authorization Evaluators] should actively monitor Display Pilot standards throughout the display season.

8.6 Minimum Heights During Displays
8.6.1 - All aerobatic maneuvers, including inverted flypasts and maneuvers which involve pulling through the vertical are to be executed above the approved aerobatic display height.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 16:28
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Originally Posted by Direct Bondi

http://www.acro.co.uk/files/CAP403.pdf

Chapter 6 - Pilot Display Competency
2.4.6. DAEs [Display Authorization Evaluators] should actively monitor Display Pilot standards throughout the display season.
Doesn't say much about actions following any lapses or violations. Basically "..at the discretion of the DAE.." So no formal system of reporting and reviewing?
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 14:48
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Is this investigation so complex that it is taking so long? Or was it to be expected it would take this long?

With the current climate of people wanting answers quickly, is this one taking rather too long?
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:40
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The investigation is complete.

It's now going down the legal route of Coroner's inquest, criminal charges and trials may follow that. This always does take a long time - possibly a couple of years.
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:53
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File being prepared for CPS. I'm taking that to mean that there will be charges.

Shoreham air disaster police probe '95% complete' - BBC News

Last edited by Super VC-10; 20th Jun 2017 at 15:55. Reason: add text
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:54
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https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/births...hearing-dates/


https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/births...ts-to-be-held/
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:36
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Pozidrive, Super VC,

Thank you.
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 17:35
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Originally Posted by Super VC-10
File being prepared for CPS. I'm taking that to mean that there will be charges.
Not certain there will be charges; CPS's job is to decide.
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