AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015
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DaveReidUK
Someone has previously mentioned the police having something like 25,000 pages of material. It all has to be looked at by the defence whether it eventually takes them by surprise or not.
Using an average of 2 minutes per page (the figure that used to be accepted to read straightforward criminal trial statements and bearing in mind much of it here may be technical) = 50,000 minutes or 833.33 hours or 104 eight hour days (assuming that you read constantly for the 8 hours) or 21 working weeks. In reality, if the 25,000 figure is anywhere near correct it will take several months just to go through the prosecution material and that's before you factor in defence evidence, experts etc.
Someone has previously mentioned the police having something like 25,000 pages of material. It all has to be looked at by the defence whether it eventually takes them by surprise or not.
Using an average of 2 minutes per page (the figure that used to be accepted to read straightforward criminal trial statements and bearing in mind much of it here may be technical) = 50,000 minutes or 833.33 hours or 104 eight hour days (assuming that you read constantly for the 8 hours) or 21 working weeks. In reality, if the 25,000 figure is anywhere near correct it will take several months just to go through the prosecution material and that's before you factor in defence evidence, experts etc.
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The name of a specialist personal injury firm has already appeared somewhere. Civil claims may well be in preparation already.
You could add aircraft maintainers to the list, and airshow organiser if this was not the airfield operator.
You could add aircraft maintainers to the list, and airshow organiser if this was not the airfield operator.
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Direct Bondi
A legal notice of a claim must be issued within three years of the incident. There is no limit on how long it may take for a claim to be settled once that initial notice has been given. While the courts are sensitive to victim's needs and may order interim payments to cover medical costs and other necessities, the final reckoning of accounts can take many years, especially if the prognosis for a victim changes in light of medical advances, or alternatively deteriorates. Been there, done that, the payments to victims are not exceedingly generous, but the legal profession make a killing!
A legal notice of a claim must be issued within three years of the incident. There is no limit on how long it may take for a claim to be settled once that initial notice has been given. While the courts are sensitive to victim's needs and may order interim payments to cover medical costs and other necessities, the final reckoning of accounts can take many years, especially if the prognosis for a victim changes in light of medical advances, or alternatively deteriorates. Been there, done that, the payments to victims are not exceedingly generous, but the legal profession make a killing!
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Civil claims ?
Have a look at the following news report:
Shoreham air crash families get compensation - BBC News
The civil claim aspects may have all been done and dusted by now.
Criminal offences are not about monetary compensation, these are entirely a different ball game played in a different field, namely the criminal courts and not the local county court or the chancery division of the high court. The chaps in wigs are all from the criminal bar.
So we are currently contemplating whether or not the CAA, the organisers, the aircraft owner and the pilot, or any combination/ permutation thereof, are about to be brought to face criminal charges,and the prospect of doing time in one of her majesty`s prisons and some fines if they are convicted of the lesser offences. If convicted on the more serious offence of manslaughter/gross negligence, then it is lots of porridge. Plenty of plea bargaining before it gets to the Old Bailey, if it is to go in that direction of course. But if it ever comes to pass, then it will be a trial of some proportions. Look how long the French took over Concorde and the Mulhouse -Habsehim Airbus crashes.
Over here in the UK of late we had the case of the Red Arrows crash and the tragic death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, the CPS decision is at :
CPS decision on the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham
So I think it will be a first for the UK if it goes to trial.
Have a look at the following news report:
Shoreham air crash families get compensation - BBC News
The civil claim aspects may have all been done and dusted by now.
Criminal offences are not about monetary compensation, these are entirely a different ball game played in a different field, namely the criminal courts and not the local county court or the chancery division of the high court. The chaps in wigs are all from the criminal bar.
So we are currently contemplating whether or not the CAA, the organisers, the aircraft owner and the pilot, or any combination/ permutation thereof, are about to be brought to face criminal charges,and the prospect of doing time in one of her majesty`s prisons and some fines if they are convicted of the lesser offences. If convicted on the more serious offence of manslaughter/gross negligence, then it is lots of porridge. Plenty of plea bargaining before it gets to the Old Bailey, if it is to go in that direction of course. But if it ever comes to pass, then it will be a trial of some proportions. Look how long the French took over Concorde and the Mulhouse -Habsehim Airbus crashes.
Over here in the UK of late we had the case of the Red Arrows crash and the tragic death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, the CPS decision is at :
CPS decision on the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham
So I think it will be a first for the UK if it goes to trial.
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...Over here in the UK of late we had the case of the Red Arrows crash and the tragic death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, the CPS decision is at :
CPS decision on the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham
So I think it will be a first for the UK if it goes to trial.
CPS decision on the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham
So I think it will be a first for the UK if it goes to trial.
Surely not a "first for the UK", can you explain what you mean there?
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Yes Pozidrive.
This is a subject of some current interest, it is referred to under the heading of Criminalisation of Air Accidents.
As far as I know there has not been any cases in the UK involving manslaughter or gross negligence in air accidents. That is the reason for my remark. If you or anyone else knows of any such case I would be interested to hear about it.
This is a subject of some current interest, it is referred to under the heading of Criminalisation of Air Accidents.
As far as I know there has not been any cases in the UK involving manslaughter or gross negligence in air accidents. That is the reason for my remark. If you or anyone else knows of any such case I would be interested to hear about it.
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Thanks Legal Approach, however the microlight inspector`s case did not go to trial. I don`t know the outcome of the Tiger Moth case. Did that ever go to trial.
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The inspector's case did not go to a jury but only because the defendant's lawyers successfully argued that it should be halted on medical grounds. The Tiger Moth pilot was prosecuted for gross negligence manslaughter and was found not guilty by a jury.
In 1991 Captain Glen Stewart was convicted of negligently endangering his aircraft and fined.
The gentleman subsequently took his own life.
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightP...20-%201236.PDF
Pilot in near miss found dead in car | The Independent
The gentleman subsequently took his own life.
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightP...20-%201236.PDF
Pilot in near miss found dead in car | The Independent
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Yes Pozidrive.
This is a subject of some current interest, it is referred to under the heading of Criminalisation of Air Accidents.
As far as I know there has not been any cases in the UK involving manslaughter or gross negligence in air accidents. That is the reason for my remark. If you or anyone else knows of any such case I would be interested to hear about it.
This is a subject of some current interest, it is referred to under the heading of Criminalisation of Air Accidents.
As far as I know there has not been any cases in the UK involving manslaughter or gross negligence in air accidents. That is the reason for my remark. If you or anyone else knows of any such case I would be interested to hear about it.
OK, understood, I was taking a wider view. There have been a number of recent manslaughter trials following fatalities. The first one that comes to mind was the crash of a badly maintained tipper truck in Somerset - result was two manslaughter convictions.
Any reason why air accidents shouldn't be criminalised, if there's evidence laws have been broken?
Incidentally, the defence in both of the two aforementioned cases (albeit one of them didn't get to court) involved challenging the findings of the respective AAIB investigations.
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Legal Approach mentioned the Tiger Moth crash. This would seem to be the only UK case where a manslaughter and endangering the safety of an aircraft charges were brought against a pilot. In this instance the jury at the Crown Court acquitted the pilot on both charges. Having regard to this case, perhaps this adds some weight to the considerations of the CPS.
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Chronus
I posted details of another. A helicopter crash from 1990. It seems to have been moderated, though I have absolutely no idea why, as it is a matter of public record.
There is an AAIB report.
I have no idea why I am not allowed to refer to it?
But you are wrong in your assertion.
I posted details of another. A helicopter crash from 1990. It seems to have been moderated, though I have absolutely no idea why, as it is a matter of public record.
There is an AAIB report.
I have no idea why I am not allowed to refer to it?
But you are wrong in your assertion.
Last edited by 4468; 25th Jun 2017 at 20:46.
The March 2000 helicopter crash at Twyford, Berks, also resulted in the trial of an engineer for manslaughter. The jury found him not guilty.
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A friend (and former fixed wing syndicate partner) declined a seat on this flight due to another appointment. Two seats were taken up by others, who tragically perished.
There but for the grace of God, etc...
There but for the grace of God, etc...
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With the chopper crash mentioned by Dave Reid, that now makes two attempts at manslaughter charges in both of which the CPS failed to secure a conviction. Here is an extract from the CPS The Code for Crown Prosecutors:
"The Decision Whether to Prosecute
4.5 The finding that there is a realistic prospect of conviction is based on the
prosecutor’s objective assessment of the evidence, including the impact of
any defence and any other information that the suspect has put forward or on
which he or she might rely."
In both the Tiger Moth and the chopper cases they must have thought that there was a realistic prospect of conviction. But the expected was not the outcome . Will they now try for a third.
"The Decision Whether to Prosecute
4.5 The finding that there is a realistic prospect of conviction is based on the
prosecutor’s objective assessment of the evidence, including the impact of
any defence and any other information that the suspect has put forward or on
which he or she might rely."
In both the Tiger Moth and the chopper cases they must have thought that there was a realistic prospect of conviction. But the expected was not the outcome . Will they now try for a third.
The cases mentioned may well not have resulted in a guilty verdict, but that certainly doesn't mean that the individuals concerned were innocent. If you're in the aviation business and read the relevant reports you can undoubtably form your own conclusion.
Have we yet mentioned the South Cerney Herc? I gather the jury were swung by the u/s rad alt. Hard to explain to Joe public that the instrument that tells you your height above the ground was not particularly important on that day!!!
Have we yet mentioned the South Cerney Herc? I gather the jury were swung by the u/s rad alt. Hard to explain to Joe public that the instrument that tells you your height above the ground was not particularly important on that day!!!