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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

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AAIB investigation to Hawker Hunter T7 G-BXFI 22 August 2015

Old 12th Dec 2017, 17:16
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I am not suggesting that roads should have been closed.


I am just pointing out that the measures that were agreed, to mitigate some of the risks, were not carried out.

The people who came up with the plan decided that traffic lights should stay on green, to prevent a build up of traffic.

As it turns out, they were right to suggest that, but they didn't make it so.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 18:53
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Yes they were. The risk was identified as traffic, not aircraft crashes and measures were put in place.

Risk is a part of everyday life and you are not expected to eliminate all risks. What you must do is make sure you know about the main risks and the things you need to do to manage them responsibly.

Your risk assessment should only include what you could reasonably be expected to know - you are not expected to anticipate unforeseeable risks.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 20:11
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So, the traffic lights if kept at green meant that the aircraft would impact moving traffic. How does that mitigate the event that happened? "The people" you keep referring to, could not have prevented an event such as this by adjusting a few traffic light sequences. Any blame cannot rest with 'These people"

Last edited by cessnapete; 12th Dec 2017 at 20:26.
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 08:52
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Should the Le Mans motor race have been cancelled after 1955?
How about the Isle of Man TT...formula 1?

Or ban NASCAR now before a spectator gets killed.
Can they GUARANTEE safety?
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 10:52
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This pilot had not flown the Hunter very much previously to this airshow. I would strongly suggest that was not current with the aircraft and was not current to perform these manouevers.

In the airline world, we have to have special extra training and clearance to land scheduled passenger jets at Gibralter - which is entirely standard, but a bit short and a bit tight with occasional dodgy winds. Only Captains who have had extra training are authorised to do so and if they haven’t done so for 42 days, it is mandatory to carry a current TRI/TRE either in the RHS or the jump seat to revalidate and ensure the approach is flown correctly.

All well and good. But there at Shoreham, we have a very old aircraft that was maintained by a band of no doubt keen but also not current (on the Hunter) enthusiast engineers. Spare parts are extremely rare, budgets are extremely tight. Rubber seals for example lose their effectiveness over time and should be periodically replaced. I don’t recall if the engine had been properly tested, run, borescoped, or whether engine thrust measurements had been made in the days before the display?

The pilot self briefed. He did not sit in a formal briefing room with other display pilots and a white board and support staff to go through the display, the weather, the performance gates, possible failures and escape manoeuvres and talk everything through.

I am not personally blaming anybody involved in the sequence I have outlined - none of them were deliberately negligent and I am sure they all did their best on the day - but I feel very strongly that the authorities must mandate much stricter rules and processes. Aerobatic display flying should only be performed by current display pilots or current test pilots on properly maintained machines. Proper military style briefings should be carried out. The authorities should go through everything with a fine toothed comb and have a representative there on site before approving aerobatic displays by old aircraft and allowing them to take off.

Cost more money? You bet, but as the old saying goes “If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident”

.
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 11:50
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Uplinker

If you could please advise which defect in the aircraft caused the accident then?
If you could please clarify your statement about not being current?
And if you could please point me towards the relevant sections in the AAIB report detailing these matters?

That would be very helpful.
Thank you.
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 13:27
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Originally Posted by mrangryofwarlingham View Post
Uplinker

If you could please advise which defect in the aircraft caused the accident then?
If you could please clarify your statement about not being current?
And if you could please point me towards the relevant sections in the AAIB report detailing these matters?

That would be very helpful.
Thank you.
The AAIB report identified insufficient thrust during the upward part of the loop as a causal factor.

While it did not definitively attribute that to a mechanical defect, it concluded that "an uncommanded reduction in thrust during the accident manoeuvre could not be ruled out".
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 14:11
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Cant be proved whether it had a bearing on accident but the aircraft was not airworthy on a number of counts and anyone with knowledge of operating and maintaining those engines professionally will know you can't discount the thrust reduction which may have caught him out due to some other distraction which we will never know the answer to . But factually the airworthiness issue is more of an issue for the CAA than the operator as they approved the permit to fly . Read the report and you will find they rejected most of the maintenance issues before eventually being forced to accept most of them . Could be interesting in court because it should be the CAA in the dock for this even if it can't be proved it was the cause of this sad accident
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:29
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Dear G109

This case is now subject to the Contempt of Court Act as proceedings are active. Whilst you might like to act as Judge, jury and executioner without having seen a single jot of the evidence you might also like to bear that in mind. Care to delete your post?
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:34
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Legalapproach

Care to delete your arrogant post?
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:36
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"The strict liability rule applies only to a publication which creates a substantial risk that the course of justice in the proceedings in question will be seriously impeded or prejudiced."

I don't think any comments made here will qualify.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:36
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Old China

No - the case is subject to the Contempt of Court Act - just a bit of friendly advice and we all know that journos are the first to attribute to this site
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:40
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Originally Posted by Legalapproach View Post
Dear G109

This case is now subject to the Contempt of Court Act as proceedings are active. Whilst you might like to act as Judge, jury and executioner without having seen a single jot of the evidence you might also like to bear that in mind. Care to delete your post?

Hmmm, someone with no connection to the case posting an opinion on an internet forum can be considered "Contempt of Court" in the UK? Seems bizarre.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:41
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FFS guys, this is Gt Britain not Russia!

Andy may have pulled the trigger but the system manufactured the gun and gave him the bullets!
This was a joint effort between the pilot/regulators and organisers if you masnaged to read the AAIB report???

Have some humanity. Do you think he woke up that morning and decided to wreak carnage?
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:42
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Hands Up Those Who Have Never Made A Mistake.

The Guy didn't go out and deliberately take out 11 people. He screwed up. Display flying, like anything else can be terribly unforgiving if you get it wrong.

Yes he will have to face the verdict, given out in a court of law. There but for the grace of God go many, I suspect.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:45
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If the Mods are happy to let this thread run then fine but I know that a few years ago in a similar case they were not and I was simply pointing out that -for the third time - this case is subject to the Contempt of Court Act. I suspect that what everyone would agree with is that there should be a fair trial in accordance with the law.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 21:46
  #1117 (permalink)  
 
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Dan Brown, thank you sir. Those who never made a mistake in aviation have either not flown at all or are liars.

so, +1
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 22:20
  #1118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Thomas coupling View Post
Do you think he woke up that morning and decided to wreak carnage?
Well, I don't have much familiarity with the UK laws, but if "Manslaughter" in the UK is anything remotely like "Manslaughter" in the US, then the same can be said of every single person convicted of, or even charged with, manslaughter.
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