Mid-Air Collision over Southern Germany (merged)
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Some very good posts indeed...
About STCA conflict alert, this is a very new device to the ATC world and is not utlised everywhere, for example in Canada where I used to work... NO CONFLICT ALERT. Just because there is not conflict alert does not mean that a sector/ACC is running at a reduced capacity.
We talk about small sectors because Swiss territory is so small, well it's not much different here than what it was in Toronto Canada where I was before and of course in Canada we have all that immense airspace
There is alot of talk about a single sky in Europe avoiding this type of problem. The reality is that Switzerland is right in the middle of most crossing traffic to major Euro destinations. Just look at last summer, Geneva and Zurich were the cause of a big portion of delays throughout Europe due to staff shortages.
Standard Departure, if you want to know what it's like here, talk to your collegue in Dubai that used to be here. He knows me very well.
About STCA conflict alert, this is a very new device to the ATC world and is not utlised everywhere, for example in Canada where I used to work... NO CONFLICT ALERT. Just because there is not conflict alert does not mean that a sector/ACC is running at a reduced capacity.
We talk about small sectors because Swiss territory is so small, well it's not much different here than what it was in Toronto Canada where I was before and of course in Canada we have all that immense airspace
There is alot of talk about a single sky in Europe avoiding this type of problem. The reality is that Switzerland is right in the middle of most crossing traffic to major Euro destinations. Just look at last summer, Geneva and Zurich were the cause of a big portion of delays throughout Europe due to staff shortages.
Standard Departure, if you want to know what it's like here, talk to your collegue in Dubai that used to be here. He knows me very well.
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TU-154 Capt. Alexander Gross alerted Swiss ATC to presence of B-757
According to gazeta.ru, Capt. Alexander Gross who was in command of the doomed TU-154 airliner had actually radioed Swiss ATC 90 seconds before impact to alert them to information from his own onboard TCAS, asking whether he should really follow TCAS instructions to descend (whilst the other a/c, the DHL B-757, began descending as well). Skyguide apparently confirmed instructions to descend.
Gazeta.ru cites sources within the Russian investigation unit set up for this mid-air collision.
Swiss ATC company Skyguide says it is aware of the Russian reports but does not wish to comment prior to a statement by the German BFU (Air Accident Investigation Bureau) which is planning a media briefing this afternoon GMT.
Rumours out of Germany suggest that the Skyguide controller might have been asleep.
Gazeta.ru cites sources within the Russian investigation unit set up for this mid-air collision.
Swiss ATC company Skyguide says it is aware of the Russian reports but does not wish to comment prior to a statement by the German BFU (Air Accident Investigation Bureau) which is planning a media briefing this afternoon GMT.
Rumours out of Germany suggest that the Skyguide controller might have been asleep.
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 4th Jul 2002 at 13:58.
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Follow TCAS or follow ATC?
To follow or no to follow?, that is the question. Do you follow the instruction of TCAS or the controller when they are telling you different things? Common opinion seems to be to follow TCAS. But then questions are raised about it's reliability.
So is it possible for ATC to know what a TCAS instruction is? Please bear in mind that I'm not a controller and not an engineer so I don't know what's practical or possible from these points of view. However, it occurs to me that if a controller knew wht a TCAS message was, s/he might issue compatable instructions. If not, it might also give a pilot more faith in folloing ATC instructions should the differ from TCAS.
I'm not making comment on the cause of the crash, this just seems like an area for misunderstanding. Can it be solved?
So is it possible for ATC to know what a TCAS instruction is? Please bear in mind that I'm not a controller and not an engineer so I don't know what's practical or possible from these points of view. However, it occurs to me that if a controller knew wht a TCAS message was, s/he might issue compatable instructions. If not, it might also give a pilot more faith in folloing ATC instructions should the differ from TCAS.
I'm not making comment on the cause of the crash, this just seems like an area for misunderstanding. Can it be solved?
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Low Pass-
In a nutshell, no there is no automatic means for the ATC to know what the TCAS is telling the pilot (but that would be a usefull tool). Pilots may actually tell ATC what is happening if they have the time or the presence of mind.
My understanding is that pilots MUST follow TCAS RA's (Resolution Advisories) even if they contradict ATC instructions. It may of course not be easy if the ATC is "shouting" an instruction to climb/descend for "Traffic Avoidance".
In a nutshell, no there is no automatic means for the ATC to know what the TCAS is telling the pilot (but that would be a usefull tool). Pilots may actually tell ATC what is happening if they have the time or the presence of mind.
My understanding is that pilots MUST follow TCAS RA's (Resolution Advisories) even if they contradict ATC instructions. It may of course not be easy if the ATC is "shouting" an instruction to climb/descend for "Traffic Avoidance".
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Alpha Leader
I just saw the press conference on tv and they showed both CVR's. They are substantially damaged and are not yet listened to.
Also a statement from swiss ATC there was nothing on their tapes indicating a TU154 warning as to the position of the 757.
BFU also not mentioned anything of the sort.
They warned for speculation in the press.
Best regards
A.V.
I just saw the press conference on tv and they showed both CVR's. They are substantially damaged and are not yet listened to.
Also a statement from swiss ATC there was nothing on their tapes indicating a TU154 warning as to the position of the 757.
BFU also not mentioned anything of the sort.
They warned for speculation in the press.
Best regards
A.V.
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BFU press conference
Facts and statements from the latest BFU press conference (14.30 UTC):
STCA was turned off at 21.00 UTC for maintenance
Required minimum lateral sep therefore increased from 5NM to 7NM
Assuming a speed of 450kts and a rate of descent of 1000 ft/min.,
time of clearance required before crossing to achieve 7NM: 90 secs
Actual time of descent clearance given before crossing: 44 secs
No reply
Time of second attempt to give clearance (after no reply from pilot) before crossing: 30 secs
Descent commenced by TU crew
Transmission on frequency 14 secs before impact:"TCAS desent".
Although not yet confirmed, it is assumed that this transmission came from the DHL crew.
Both aircraft were, according to Eurocontrol, equipped with the latest generation of TCAS systems.
Magnetic tape of flight recorders are damaged and have not yet been analysed.
There is, according to the BFU representatives investigating skyguide's role in Zurich who listened to the ATC transcripts, no transmission of the TU crew 90 secs before impact mentioning Traffic Advisory shown on TCAS.
Note: Theses are all statements made by BFU representatives.
STCA was turned off at 21.00 UTC for maintenance
Required minimum lateral sep therefore increased from 5NM to 7NM
Assuming a speed of 450kts and a rate of descent of 1000 ft/min.,
time of clearance required before crossing to achieve 7NM: 90 secs
Actual time of descent clearance given before crossing: 44 secs
No reply
Time of second attempt to give clearance (after no reply from pilot) before crossing: 30 secs
Descent commenced by TU crew
Transmission on frequency 14 secs before impact:"TCAS desent".
Although not yet confirmed, it is assumed that this transmission came from the DHL crew.
Both aircraft were, according to Eurocontrol, equipped with the latest generation of TCAS systems.
Magnetic tape of flight recorders are damaged and have not yet been analysed.
There is, according to the BFU representatives investigating skyguide's role in Zurich who listened to the ATC transcripts, no transmission of the TU crew 90 secs before impact mentioning Traffic Advisory shown on TCAS.
Note: Theses are all statements made by BFU representatives.
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Low Pass, Standard Departure.
There is, within the TCAS / Mode S system architecture, a downlink format for passing RA information to a ground station.
It just isn't implemented yet, AFAIK.
I have a recollection, though I couldn't swear to it, last time I looked at this side of things (about 2 1/2 years ago), this ATC downlink was being trialled at a couple of ATC unit in the USA.
CPB
There is, within the TCAS / Mode S system architecture, a downlink format for passing RA information to a ground station.
It just isn't implemented yet, AFAIK.
I have a recollection, though I couldn't swear to it, last time I looked at this side of things (about 2 1/2 years ago), this ATC downlink was being trialled at a couple of ATC unit in the USA.
CPB
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DFC
I note your comment that Northbound a/c are handed over from France to the U.K. at the same level as crossing traffic at BPK.
From ABB to BPK is 15 to 17 minutes depending on cruising TAS or G/S. This is three times as long as the time available in the German/Swiss handover and involves(or at least did in my days) two UK sectors, names now changed to numbers, but used to be Lydd and Clacton, so the Lydd sector would not have information on the BPK traffic until co-ordination was commenced between the two sectors and this would be well before the traffic left the Lydd sector. Not at all the same situation as in this tragic accident.
I hope this answers you question
I note your comment that Northbound a/c are handed over from France to the U.K. at the same level as crossing traffic at BPK.
From ABB to BPK is 15 to 17 minutes depending on cruising TAS or G/S. This is three times as long as the time available in the German/Swiss handover and involves(or at least did in my days) two UK sectors, names now changed to numbers, but used to be Lydd and Clacton, so the Lydd sector would not have information on the BPK traffic until co-ordination was commenced between the two sectors and this would be well before the traffic left the Lydd sector. Not at all the same situation as in this tragic accident.
I hope this answers you question
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Euro ATC
Since you ask I retired 6years ago, and have certainly controlled traffic under the conditions you describe, but that is surely in very busy periods with heavy traffic much of which is climbing or descending. This incident took place during a night duty when there were only 5 a/c on the sector (if reports are correct). I stand by my belief that in all the conditions at the time the a/c should not have been accepted at a conflicting level with only 5 minutes to crossing point. It leaves no margin for frequency change problems or the possibility as some one else has mentioned of a stuck transmitter, or for that matter any other communication difficulty. I do'nt know what the co-ordination SOPs are but merely point out that this is an area that has to be seriously examined during the investigation.
I feel very sorry for the two controllers concerned and hope that all turns out well for them, but lets not sweep the problems under the carpet in support of our colleagues. Our main sympathies should lie with the families of the victims and our hopes should be that all of the factors that led to the tragedy are thoroughly investigated without fear or favour to ensure as far as possible that ANY inadequacies in the system are swiftly dealt with. I rest my case!
Since you ask I retired 6years ago, and have certainly controlled traffic under the conditions you describe, but that is surely in very busy periods with heavy traffic much of which is climbing or descending. This incident took place during a night duty when there were only 5 a/c on the sector (if reports are correct). I stand by my belief that in all the conditions at the time the a/c should not have been accepted at a conflicting level with only 5 minutes to crossing point. It leaves no margin for frequency change problems or the possibility as some one else has mentioned of a stuck transmitter, or for that matter any other communication difficulty. I do'nt know what the co-ordination SOPs are but merely point out that this is an area that has to be seriously examined during the investigation.
I feel very sorry for the two controllers concerned and hope that all turns out well for them, but lets not sweep the problems under the carpet in support of our colleagues. Our main sympathies should lie with the families of the victims and our hopes should be that all of the factors that led to the tragedy are thoroughly investigated without fear or favour to ensure as far as possible that ANY inadequacies in the system are swiftly dealt with. I rest my case!
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Talking about midair collisions I feel I must quote an experience my brother (& he's not prone to exaggeration 
) had over Portugal while flying from Tenerife to London some years ago. He was in a window seat staring nonchantly out the window when much to his shock & that of other pax another plane passed so close he was able to "distinguish the faces of the pax on the other plane" yet funny it never made the headlines. I wonder how many near misses like this occur which because they never turn into a full blown tragedy/collision go unreported? 
Emerald
) had over Portugal while flying from Tenerife to London some years ago. He was in a window seat staring nonchantly out the window when much to his shock & that of other pax another plane passed so close he was able to "distinguish the faces of the pax on the other plane" yet funny it never made the headlines. I wonder how many near misses like this occur which because they never turn into a full blown tragedy/collision go unreported? Emerald
"The INTRODUCER"
excerpt from Flight International TCAS feature, 18 Jan 1995
...All TCAS 2 units have the capability to downlink RAs to Mode S ground stations and the FAA has experimented with implementation of the TCAS RA-downlink feature. Controllers could thus be notified automatically of RAs displayed in aircraft under their control.
"There might be some benefit in bringing the controller into the loop. Overall ATC system-management may be improved by letting controllers immediately see the RAs generated in the aircraft cockpit, rather than having the controller wait to be notified by a pilot after the fact," says Williamson.
Up to now, no provision has been made to transmit the RAs to ATC sites from Mode S ground stations for display.
In 1994, the FAA conducted a test at Baltimore/Washington International Airport, in which ten controllers participated in a simulation experiment designed to define the human-factors interface requirements for the displayed RA information.
Initial indications are that RA downlink is useful to controllers in some RA situations and the FAA will demonstrate the RA downlink in a six-month field evaluation at Boston's Logan International Airport, beginning late this year, says Williamson. ...
Personally I'd say be careful what you wish for. Seems reasonable to tell the guys in the cockpit in effect 'obey TCAS over ATC', but a lot harder to tell controllers in effect 'don't give an instruction if you get a message saying TCAS has it under control'.
...All TCAS 2 units have the capability to downlink RAs to Mode S ground stations and the FAA has experimented with implementation of the TCAS RA-downlink feature. Controllers could thus be notified automatically of RAs displayed in aircraft under their control.
"There might be some benefit in bringing the controller into the loop. Overall ATC system-management may be improved by letting controllers immediately see the RAs generated in the aircraft cockpit, rather than having the controller wait to be notified by a pilot after the fact," says Williamson.
Up to now, no provision has been made to transmit the RAs to ATC sites from Mode S ground stations for display.
In 1994, the FAA conducted a test at Baltimore/Washington International Airport, in which ten controllers participated in a simulation experiment designed to define the human-factors interface requirements for the displayed RA information.
Initial indications are that RA downlink is useful to controllers in some RA situations and the FAA will demonstrate the RA downlink in a six-month field evaluation at Boston's Logan International Airport, beginning late this year, says Williamson. ...
Personally I'd say be careful what you wish for. Seems reasonable to tell the guys in the cockpit in effect 'obey TCAS over ATC', but a lot harder to tell controllers in effect 'don't give an instruction if you get a message saying TCAS has it under control'.
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Oldjet Jockey,
I agree that accepting traffic at conflicting levels with only 5 minutes to the crossing point is asking for trouble, sooner or later. But having spoken with an ex-SkyGuide controller that used to work in this sector, this is the norm in their system. Literally last minute level changes some 50 to 60 seconds prior to crossing are not unheard of, so from this point of view the SkyGuide spokespersons are accurate.
Trouble is, if these flaws are rectified, capacity will decrease, and the airlines and politicians will start screaming about increased ATC delays, and the ATM providers will go belly-up financially.
It's a sad state of affairs.................
I agree that accepting traffic at conflicting levels with only 5 minutes to the crossing point is asking for trouble, sooner or later. But having spoken with an ex-SkyGuide controller that used to work in this sector, this is the norm in their system. Literally last minute level changes some 50 to 60 seconds prior to crossing are not unheard of, so from this point of view the SkyGuide spokespersons are accurate.
Trouble is, if these flaws are rectified, capacity will decrease, and the airlines and politicians will start screaming about increased ATC delays, and the ATM providers will go belly-up financially.
It's a sad state of affairs.................
Celtic E.
I had a very similar experience as a passenger on a shuttle flight in the UK a couple of years ago.
The a/c was in a holding pattern for about 15 minutes when suddenly the engines wound up and the 180 degree turn we were in suddenly became a straight and level climb.
I looked out of the port side window and gasped in shock as a BA 747 barrelled over the top of us at about 400ft distance.
I kid you not, I could read the reg!!
As we disembarked the captain was stood by the exit grim faced. I spoke to him as I passed "TCAS works then?" He give me what can only be described as an "old fashioned" look but said nothing.
God knows why we were climbing when an a/c was above us but that's what happened.
I checked all that year to see if any mention was made of this incident, nothing.
I had a very similar experience as a passenger on a shuttle flight in the UK a couple of years ago.
The a/c was in a holding pattern for about 15 minutes when suddenly the engines wound up and the 180 degree turn we were in suddenly became a straight and level climb.
I looked out of the port side window and gasped in shock as a BA 747 barrelled over the top of us at about 400ft distance.
I kid you not, I could read the reg!!
As we disembarked the captain was stood by the exit grim faced. I spoke to him as I passed "TCAS works then?" He give me what can only be described as an "old fashioned" look but said nothing.
God knows why we were climbing when an a/c was above us but that's what happened.
I checked all that year to see if any mention was made of this incident, nothing.
Last edited by HOVIS; 4th Jul 2002 at 18:25.
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Volare.
If the a 50-60 second prior to impact (or crossing) instruction is considered normal in a cruise (Area) environment, then I find that in itself to be a critically dangerous situation.
If that standard is an operational thing because of traffic, then I pity the ATC's working there. HOWEVER, waiting for 4 minutes so that they can get that close (60 seconds) and then giving the instruction, when there are no other aircraft in the vicinity ???? that has got to be considered as negligent.... there must have been something else distracting the ATC, I just cannot believe that that is the way it is....
If the a 50-60 second prior to impact (or crossing) instruction is considered normal in a cruise (Area) environment, then I find that in itself to be a critically dangerous situation.
If that standard is an operational thing because of traffic, then I pity the ATC's working there. HOWEVER, waiting for 4 minutes so that they can get that close (60 seconds) and then giving the instruction, when there are no other aircraft in the vicinity ???? that has got to be considered as negligent.... there must have been something else distracting the ATC, I just cannot believe that that is the way it is....
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Standard_Departure,
Indeed, a four-minute delay at night in correcting a conflicting level appears strange to me too. Something else must have caused a distraction. I guess the enquiry will reveal the circumstances.
But during peak hours, ATCOs in this area don't have the luxury of substantial advance planning of their traffic, not even in enroute control; there are just too many aeroplanes in each sector for that to be possible. It becomes an exercise from hand to mouth............
My expatriate ex-SkyGuide controller colleague took the consequences of this and declined a renewal of his contract, fearing the worst.
I pity our colleagues who must accept such conditions. Can't be possible for them to work under such pressure until normal retirement age.
From CNN I now understand that homicide charges are being considered against the two controllers on duty. As so many others have said: "There, but for the Grace of God, go I."
Indeed, a four-minute delay at night in correcting a conflicting level appears strange to me too. Something else must have caused a distraction. I guess the enquiry will reveal the circumstances.
But during peak hours, ATCOs in this area don't have the luxury of substantial advance planning of their traffic, not even in enroute control; there are just too many aeroplanes in each sector for that to be possible. It becomes an exercise from hand to mouth............
My expatriate ex-SkyGuide controller colleague took the consequences of this and declined a renewal of his contract, fearing the worst.
I pity our colleagues who must accept such conditions. Can't be possible for them to work under such pressure until normal retirement age.
From CNN I now understand that homicide charges are being considered against the two controllers on duty. As so many others have said: "There, but for the Grace of God, go I."
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Volare
If you are correct in saying that 60 secs is in any way considered to be okay then I say that is totally unacceptable. If it has been permitted in order to increase the sector's capacity, then doubley so.
I keep hearing politicians and ATC managers saying to the public that safety is paramount. If these are the limits in use it clearly isn't. And let's not kid ourselves that it couldn't happen in the UK. I regularly (daily) see people pointing traffic at each other on the basis that they are going to something about it before it gets critical.
"I have always done it like that and not had a problem so far" is the answer I usually get. Folly. Communications can never be guaranteed.
NOW perhaps things will change.
Point 4
If you are correct in saying that 60 secs is in any way considered to be okay then I say that is totally unacceptable. If it has been permitted in order to increase the sector's capacity, then doubley so.
I keep hearing politicians and ATC managers saying to the public that safety is paramount. If these are the limits in use it clearly isn't. And let's not kid ourselves that it couldn't happen in the UK. I regularly (daily) see people pointing traffic at each other on the basis that they are going to something about it before it gets critical.
"I have always done it like that and not had a problem so far" is the answer I usually get. Folly. Communications can never be guaranteed.
NOW perhaps things will change.
Point 4
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In answer to Celtic Emerald (posting on page 20) whose bruv is ‘apparently’ not prone to exaggeration …..
Now I did a flight the other week, where somewhere west of the Iberian peninsular an aircraft appeared on our TCAS 1000’ below us it ( turned out to be a transatlantic bound Iberia B747 at FL330 ) was on a 90 degree intercept heading and the ‘Line of Constant Bearing’ was indeed constant. I.e. ( and to the layman ) the risk of collision might seemingly be high – whereas this other aircraft ( whilst it might of looked close – to the layman ) was actually 1000’ below us – indeed perhaps the bigger risk was from us (the pilots) burning ourselves (from our hot Tea) as we made a frantic dash into our flight bags for our DigiCams – and it would have made a lovely photo too !!
However on landing at our destination and as the pax were leaving the aircraft one gentleman let it be known to the cabincrew that he would be writing-in to ‘complain in the strongest possible terms’ about the near-miss that we had subjected the passengers too – and having done so how we had then failed to allay their fears and feelings about this ‘AirMisss’.
So CelticE, and with the above in mind, it rather sounds to me like your brother is a bit of a DH and that he should accordingly keep his ill-informed (layman) opinions to himself.
I.e. When he’s spent £50,000 of his own money in training to be an airline pilot, and when he’s passed all the written and flying exams to allow him to hold an Airline Transport Pilots License, and when (after years of trying) he’s managed to get a job with an airline that operates jets, and when after several years he has the relevant experience (i.e. several thousand hours) at the controls of a jet airliner (coz that’s what you need to sit in the Captains seat), then - and not till then - is you bruv (or indeed any other layman / pax ) suitably qualified to comment on matters aeronautical – till then, I suggest that he ( and or any others of his ilk ) keep his/their ill-informed layman’s opinions to themselves !
Now I did a flight the other week, where somewhere west of the Iberian peninsular an aircraft appeared on our TCAS 1000’ below us it ( turned out to be a transatlantic bound Iberia B747 at FL330 ) was on a 90 degree intercept heading and the ‘Line of Constant Bearing’ was indeed constant. I.e. ( and to the layman ) the risk of collision might seemingly be high – whereas this other aircraft ( whilst it might of looked close – to the layman ) was actually 1000’ below us – indeed perhaps the bigger risk was from us (the pilots) burning ourselves (from our hot Tea) as we made a frantic dash into our flight bags for our DigiCams – and it would have made a lovely photo too !!
However on landing at our destination and as the pax were leaving the aircraft one gentleman let it be known to the cabincrew that he would be writing-in to ‘complain in the strongest possible terms’ about the near-miss that we had subjected the passengers too – and having done so how we had then failed to allay their fears and feelings about this ‘AirMisss’.
So CelticE, and with the above in mind, it rather sounds to me like your brother is a bit of a DH and that he should accordingly keep his ill-informed (layman) opinions to himself.
I.e. When he’s spent £50,000 of his own money in training to be an airline pilot, and when he’s passed all the written and flying exams to allow him to hold an Airline Transport Pilots License, and when (after years of trying) he’s managed to get a job with an airline that operates jets, and when after several years he has the relevant experience (i.e. several thousand hours) at the controls of a jet airliner (coz that’s what you need to sit in the Captains seat), then - and not till then - is you bruv (or indeed any other layman / pax ) suitably qualified to comment on matters aeronautical – till then, I suggest that he ( and or any others of his ilk ) keep his/their ill-informed layman’s opinions to themselves !