Mid-Air Collision over Southern Germany (merged)
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according to swiss atc their controller (s) had both aircraft under their control for a good ten minutes before the crash,on a converging track.
why wasnt the dhl aircraft vectored behing the tupolev?if as reported the tupolev was slow to respond to descent instructions.do atc rely too heavily on tcas to prevent collisions?i am not trying to apportion responsibility.
god rest all involved
why wasnt the dhl aircraft vectored behing the tupolev?if as reported the tupolev was slow to respond to descent instructions.do atc rely too heavily on tcas to prevent collisions?i am not trying to apportion responsibility.
god rest all involved
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[(2) And why did the TCAS on board the B-757 instruct its crew to descend? ]
If the TU had not started its descent, this is what TCAS is designed to do - it has no way of knowing if the other a/c is going to go up or down until it happens! Once it detected the TU descending it can change the descent order to a climb order, but it was probably to late by then. Even if the first descending A/c had the second visual at this stage, it may have been to late.
If BOTH aircraft had working TCAS, THEN they "talk" to each other and make sure one aircraft goes up and the other down.
If the TU had not started its descent, this is what TCAS is designed to do - it has no way of knowing if the other a/c is going to go up or down until it happens! Once it detected the TU descending it can change the descent order to a climb order, but it was probably to late by then. Even if the first descending A/c had the second visual at this stage, it may have been to late.
If BOTH aircraft had working TCAS, THEN they "talk" to each other and make sure one aircraft goes up and the other down.
Last edited by foxmoth; 2nd Jul 2002 at 12:20.
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Our thoughts are with you all at DHL at this very trying time...you are, under normal circumstances, our greatest competition. We all share Europe's crowded skies, and are one part of the same family when the chips are down. I hope you find the strength that you need in the days to come.
Good luck to all.
Good luck to all.
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It is now confirmed 52 children were on bord the 154, recieved a free holiday in spain because of their outstanding good performance at school. 
very sad
Both recorders are now recovered from the 154 wreakage, the german BFU is the only western air accident investigation agency which has the equipment and the specialists to analyse russian flight recorders.
02.07.2002 05:00
BFU Press release
Actual Aircraft Accident
On July 1st 2002, 23:35 MESZ (21:35 UTC), well above the Bodensee a midair collision happened with a B757-200 (DHL) and a TU154 (Bashkirian Airlines – Russian Ferderation). The RNAV-Route Salzburg-Traunstein-Kempten-Trasadingen was used by the TU154 while B757 flew along RNAV-Route ABESI-AKABI-TANGO, both aircraft approached each other at FL 360. The collision took place close to AKABI at FL 354. At the time of occurrence both aircraft were under control by Zürich ACC.
The accident is under investigation by the BFU.
An investigation team is out to arrive at the accident site and to meet the investigation team of the Police in Friedrichshafen.
Momentarily the follwing is known: B757-200 / TU154
Aircraft Operator: DHL / Bashkirian Airlines
People aboard): 2 / ca. 57 + 12
Departure Aerodrome: Bergamo / Moskau
Destination: Brüssel / Barcelona
Flightplan:
Mode of operation: Cargo / Charter PAX-Transport
People killed:
People hurt:
Aircraft damage: Both aircraft crashed
Third party damage: Buildings and environmental damage
Phase of flight): cruise
Type of accident: Mid Air Collision
As soon as new information is available, it will be published on the BFU-internet-homepage or released.
Ergänzung der BFU-Presseinformation von 05:00 Uhr
(Supplemental Information, 5am UTC)
Eine erste Auswertung des Sprechfunkverkehrs der Schweizer Flugsicherung mit den beiden Flugzeugen hat ergeben, dass die Besatzung der TU 154 ca. 50 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß die Anweisung bekam, von Flugfläche 360 auf Flugfläche 350 zu sinken. Dieses Sinken war für den Weiterflug nach Barcelona notwendig und war gleichzeitig eine Maßnahme, um einen Höhenstaffelung zu der Boeing B 757 herzustellen.
(Analyzing swiss radio recording, the 154 was advised to sink from FL360 to FL 350 50 seconds prior to the collision, this altitude change was already planned for the flight to barcelona and an action to achive separation with the 757)
Während die Besatzung auf eine erste Aufforderung nicht reagierte, reagierte sie auf eine zweite Aufforderung und begann den Sinkflug ca. 25 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß. Kurze Zeit später begann auch die Boeing 757 aufgrund einer TCAS RA zu sinken. TCAS bedeutet „Traffic alert and collision avoidance system". Dies ist ein Gerät, das die Besatzung eines Flugzeuges vor anderem Flugverkehr warnt und der Besatzung Anweisungen gibt, wie zu reagieren ist, um einen Zusammenstoß zu verhindern.
(Ignoring the first advise, the 154 crew started to descend 25 seconds before the crash, shortly AFTER the 757 also started a descent due to an TCAS RA [...])
Warum die Warnung dieses Gerätes ebenfalls zu einem Sinkflug der Boeing 757 führte, ist noch unklar und wird Gegenstand weiterer Untersuchungen sein.
(Further investigations will show why the warning advised a descend for the 757)
So maybe someone put the blame on the russians much to early ?
Verry, verry sad, condolences to all involved
very sad Both recorders are now recovered from the 154 wreakage, the german BFU is the only western air accident investigation agency which has the equipment and the specialists to analyse russian flight recorders.
02.07.2002 05:00
BFU Press release
Actual Aircraft Accident
On July 1st 2002, 23:35 MESZ (21:35 UTC), well above the Bodensee a midair collision happened with a B757-200 (DHL) and a TU154 (Bashkirian Airlines – Russian Ferderation). The RNAV-Route Salzburg-Traunstein-Kempten-Trasadingen was used by the TU154 while B757 flew along RNAV-Route ABESI-AKABI-TANGO, both aircraft approached each other at FL 360. The collision took place close to AKABI at FL 354. At the time of occurrence both aircraft were under control by Zürich ACC.
The accident is under investigation by the BFU.
An investigation team is out to arrive at the accident site and to meet the investigation team of the Police in Friedrichshafen.
Momentarily the follwing is known: B757-200 / TU154
Aircraft Operator: DHL / Bashkirian Airlines
People aboard): 2 / ca. 57 + 12
Departure Aerodrome: Bergamo / Moskau
Destination: Brüssel / Barcelona
Flightplan:
Mode of operation: Cargo / Charter PAX-Transport
People killed:
People hurt:
Aircraft damage: Both aircraft crashed
Third party damage: Buildings and environmental damage
Phase of flight): cruise
Type of accident: Mid Air Collision
As soon as new information is available, it will be published on the BFU-internet-homepage or released.
Ergänzung der BFU-Presseinformation von 05:00 Uhr
(Supplemental Information, 5am UTC)
Eine erste Auswertung des Sprechfunkverkehrs der Schweizer Flugsicherung mit den beiden Flugzeugen hat ergeben, dass die Besatzung der TU 154 ca. 50 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß die Anweisung bekam, von Flugfläche 360 auf Flugfläche 350 zu sinken. Dieses Sinken war für den Weiterflug nach Barcelona notwendig und war gleichzeitig eine Maßnahme, um einen Höhenstaffelung zu der Boeing B 757 herzustellen.
(Analyzing swiss radio recording, the 154 was advised to sink from FL360 to FL 350 50 seconds prior to the collision, this altitude change was already planned for the flight to barcelona and an action to achive separation with the 757)
Während die Besatzung auf eine erste Aufforderung nicht reagierte, reagierte sie auf eine zweite Aufforderung und begann den Sinkflug ca. 25 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß. Kurze Zeit später begann auch die Boeing 757 aufgrund einer TCAS RA zu sinken. TCAS bedeutet „Traffic alert and collision avoidance system". Dies ist ein Gerät, das die Besatzung eines Flugzeuges vor anderem Flugverkehr warnt und der Besatzung Anweisungen gibt, wie zu reagieren ist, um einen Zusammenstoß zu verhindern.
(Ignoring the first advise, the 154 crew started to descend 25 seconds before the crash, shortly AFTER the 757 also started a descent due to an TCAS RA [...])
Warum die Warnung dieses Gerätes ebenfalls zu einem Sinkflug der Boeing 757 führte, ist noch unklar und wird Gegenstand weiterer Untersuchungen sein.
(Further investigations will show why the warning advised a descend for the 757)
So maybe someone put the blame on the russians much to early ?
Verry, verry sad, condolences to all involved
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From the above posted by Volume, it seems that the TU154 received its first instruction to decend a mere 50 seconds before the collision.
It also seems that the pilot did not respond to the first transmission, but did to the second which followed. Is it really that unusual that pilots miss their first calls (especially at night)?
It does seem a little late in the day to be carrying out a planned descent to achieve separation. I would have thought that with only 50 seconds to go to the 2 a/c meeting some avoiding action might have come in useful, and might of grabbed the pilots attention.
This is of course all conjecture going on the statement filed above.
B=But blaming the Russian's for this (as the media are already starting to do) seems a little out of order!
It also seems that the pilot did not respond to the first transmission, but did to the second which followed. Is it really that unusual that pilots miss their first calls (especially at night)?
It does seem a little late in the day to be carrying out a planned descent to achieve separation. I would have thought that with only 50 seconds to go to the 2 a/c meeting some avoiding action might have come in useful, and might of grabbed the pilots attention.
This is of course all conjecture going on the statement filed above.
B=But blaming the Russian's for this (as the media are already starting to do) seems a little out of order!
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Without preempting official investigations and if the information provided in Alpha Leader's post is correct, I would suggest that 50-90s prior to conflict time is far to late to initiate a level change. This leaves no time at all for Plan B or Plan C for solving the conflict if Plan A doesn't work. We are taught "separation assurance" in case of radio failure and I suggest that in this case there was none.
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From the BBC's web-site:
Pilots have already hit back at the early Swiss move to blame the Russian pilot.
"It seems incorrect to me for Swiss air traffic control to be already publicly blaming the Russian pilot 'because he did not respond to calls'," said one contributor to the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network.
"Why did they not co-ordinate this action with the DHL aircraft?"
Others said pilot fatigue and language problems might prove key.
"Tragedies like this are caused by governments and authorities not addressing the problems we encounter every day," one writer added.
Perhaps it's time for condolences and reflection rather than theorising...
Pilots have already hit back at the early Swiss move to blame the Russian pilot.
"It seems incorrect to me for Swiss air traffic control to be already publicly blaming the Russian pilot 'because he did not respond to calls'," said one contributor to the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network.
"Why did they not co-ordinate this action with the DHL aircraft?"
Others said pilot fatigue and language problems might prove key.
"Tragedies like this are caused by governments and authorities not addressing the problems we encounter every day," one writer added.
Perhaps it's time for condolences and reflection rather than theorising...
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md80forum>
isn't the DHL plane in the lake and the reason there's no TV visable wreckage and why they've not recovered the recorders yet?
you're right, though, people aren't seeing any DHL logo'd wreckage merrily burning away 5 metres from some person's house which is probably psychologically a better thing for DHL's (potential) customers.
how transparent is the Bahrain aviation authority likely to be? have the full findings of the last GF crash even been revealed yet?
isn't the DHL plane in the lake and the reason there's no TV visable wreckage and why they've not recovered the recorders yet?
you're right, though, people aren't seeing any DHL logo'd wreckage merrily burning away 5 metres from some person's house which is probably psychologically a better thing for DHL's (potential) customers.
how transparent is the Bahrain aviation authority likely to be? have the full findings of the last GF crash even been revealed yet?
Jolly Green Giant
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Terrible day.....
From what I was told, I can post this information about the DHL
757,
Reg: A9C-DHL
Type:757-200SF
Serial no:22175
I also got the Insurance incident mailshot, which I can't reproduce here but it has nothing major to report.
Based off the top of my head the DHL schedule would have been something like the following,
DEP BAH 1600 ARR BGY 2200
DEP BGY 2300 ARR BRU 0020
So that would give a 10 hour duty time for the crew.
I've given my condolances to colleagues in Brussels and am trying to get a contact detail to do the same for Bashkirian, does anyone have one?
From what I was told, I can post this information about the DHL
757,
Reg: A9C-DHL
Type:757-200SF
Serial no:22175
I also got the Insurance incident mailshot, which I can't reproduce here but it has nothing major to report.
Based off the top of my head the DHL schedule would have been something like the following,
DEP BAH 1600 ARR BGY 2200
DEP BGY 2300 ARR BRU 0020
So that would give a 10 hour duty time for the crew.
I've given my condolances to colleagues in Brussels and am trying to get a contact detail to do the same for Bashkirian, does anyone have one?
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As an ATC, the following things make me wonder....
*1.
If the aircraft were at the same level inbound from the Italian and German sectors respectively, then surely the Swiss sector should have co-ordinated a different level for one of them prior to entering the sector (less than 10 minutes before impact)?
*2.
Does the Swiss Sector have MTCD (Medium Term Conflict Detection) which would give about 10 -15 minute warning of conflict? If so, what was done with this MTCD information?
*3.
Surely it is not normal to leave a separation instruction so late that a non-compliance immediately causes a bad situation to turn into a desperate disaster..
*4
At what point should ATC leave the avoidance to the respective TCAS's, and
*5.
Will pilot's respond to ATC or TCAS as priority ?
These are questions that are raised in my mind as an ATC. No intent to blame anyone..
*1.
If the aircraft were at the same level inbound from the Italian and German sectors respectively, then surely the Swiss sector should have co-ordinated a different level for one of them prior to entering the sector (less than 10 minutes before impact)?
*2.
Does the Swiss Sector have MTCD (Medium Term Conflict Detection) which would give about 10 -15 minute warning of conflict? If so, what was done with this MTCD information?
*3.
Surely it is not normal to leave a separation instruction so late that a non-compliance immediately causes a bad situation to turn into a desperate disaster..
*4
At what point should ATC leave the avoidance to the respective TCAS's, and
*5.
Will pilot's respond to ATC or TCAS as priority ?
These are questions that are raised in my mind as an ATC. No intent to blame anyone..
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Some interesting comments from a DHL spokesman interviewed on television at lunchtime today.
All DHL aircraft are TCAS equipped.
All European aircraft are TCAS equipped, Russian aircraft are not.
The collision was caused by the Russian pilot.
So there we have it, no need for an accident investigation. DHL have already investigated it, and apportioned all blame to the Russians.
All DHL aircraft are TCAS equipped.
All European aircraft are TCAS equipped, Russian aircraft are not.
The collision was caused by the Russian pilot.
So there we have it, no need for an accident investigation. DHL have already investigated it, and apportioned all blame to the Russians.
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Standard Departure
Can't answer the first four points but, prior to today, as a pilot I would ALWAYS follow TCAS in preference to an ATC instruction. It is there to resolve the confiction for BOTH aircraft. However, it will be interesting to see the final outcome of this tragic affair. Maybe TCAS may be seen in a new light.
Can't answer the first four points but, prior to today, as a pilot I would ALWAYS follow TCAS in preference to an ATC instruction. It is there to resolve the confiction for BOTH aircraft. However, it will be interesting to see the final outcome of this tragic affair. Maybe TCAS may be seen in a new light.
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My first thought is with the poor Children and their families as well as both crews. The final moments must have been indescribable and horrific beyond words.
Although speculation is no doubt human nature perhaps we should show some respect towards all connected to this terrible tragedy by not overly speculating on causation at this stage.
Although speculation is no doubt human nature perhaps we should show some respect towards all connected to this terrible tragedy by not overly speculating on causation at this stage.
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a few thoughts
a few thoughts from a non pilot.
1, condolences to all relatives.
2, as an ex raf rescue co-ordinator i would like to know where the press got their initial casualty figure too. one night dundee had a beech 200 crash in the undershoot to rwy 10, he had 3 on board . within 2 minutes of the incident we had a call from the daily express about an aircraft missing near the tay bridge with 53 on board!
3, someone has already mentioned it so i will as well, were the crew of the 154 awake? it wouldnt be the first time crews have fallen asleep, and it wouldnt be the last unfortunately.
4, and of course there is the language problem.
1, condolences to all relatives.
2, as an ex raf rescue co-ordinator i would like to know where the press got their initial casualty figure too. one night dundee had a beech 200 crash in the undershoot to rwy 10, he had 3 on board . within 2 minutes of the incident we had a call from the daily express about an aircraft missing near the tay bridge with 53 on board!
3, someone has already mentioned it so i will as well, were the crew of the 154 awake? it wouldnt be the first time crews have fallen asleep, and it wouldnt be the last unfortunately.
4, and of course there is the language problem.
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STD-DEP:
1. The entry levels via those two points were correct for the direction of flight of the two aircraft. The 757 , via SRN, would have been on the freq. for quite a wee while before the T154 in at KPT.
2. Yes, Zurich does have Short Term Conflict Alert , but it seems it was off for maintenance. Usual procedure to do so during the night shift.
3. I also feel very uncomfortable about the ATCO waiting approx. 1 min. prior to "loss of separation" before instructing an aircraft to change level. Compounded by the fact the pilot did not immediatly respond/comply. It's a sad reality that pilots do not always do what we tell them to do immediatly.
But what is emerging and is of real concern regarding TCAS is that the DHL TCAS " Descend" command came AFTER the T154 started to comply with the ATCO's instruction to descend to FL350. Why would it give a descent command against conflicting traffic alreading descending ?
1. The entry levels via those two points were correct for the direction of flight of the two aircraft. The 757 , via SRN, would have been on the freq. for quite a wee while before the T154 in at KPT.
2. Yes, Zurich does have Short Term Conflict Alert , but it seems it was off for maintenance. Usual procedure to do so during the night shift.
3. I also feel very uncomfortable about the ATCO waiting approx. 1 min. prior to "loss of separation" before instructing an aircraft to change level. Compounded by the fact the pilot did not immediatly respond/comply. It's a sad reality that pilots do not always do what we tell them to do immediatly.
But what is emerging and is of real concern regarding TCAS is that the DHL TCAS " Descend" command came AFTER the T154 started to comply with the ATCO's instruction to descend to FL350. Why would it give a descent command against conflicting traffic alreading descending ?
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Anne.Nonymous,
As an ATCO I do agree with you about following TCAS over ATC instructions, this is what we expect. However there are many potential problems when following this course of action.
TCAS provides generally inaccurate guidance in azimuth.
I believe TCAS displays targets anywhere in a 30 degree arc. Therefore a target in your 12 o'clock may be 15 degrees either side.
TCAS will resolve the conflict for both aircraft, but that may put the aircraft in further conflictions. This is particularly true if flight control inputs are excessive.
I have been involved in an incident when TCAS instructed a climb to resolve one conflict, only for a TCAS descent instruction immediately after the climb was commenced as there was further traffic descending 1000' on top. The pilot was left with little option but to take a 500' level and try his best to steer between them.
I offer no speculation on this tragic accident, merely stating TCAS is not perfect and all of us should endeavour to understand its limitations.
I'm sure there will be lots of lessons for all of us from this tragedy.
As an ATCO I do agree with you about following TCAS over ATC instructions, this is what we expect. However there are many potential problems when following this course of action.
TCAS provides generally inaccurate guidance in azimuth.
I believe TCAS displays targets anywhere in a 30 degree arc. Therefore a target in your 12 o'clock may be 15 degrees either side.
TCAS will resolve the conflict for both aircraft, but that may put the aircraft in further conflictions. This is particularly true if flight control inputs are excessive.
I have been involved in an incident when TCAS instructed a climb to resolve one conflict, only for a TCAS descent instruction immediately after the climb was commenced as there was further traffic descending 1000' on top. The pilot was left with little option but to take a 500' level and try his best to steer between them.
I offer no speculation on this tragic accident, merely stating TCAS is not perfect and all of us should endeavour to understand its limitations.
I'm sure there will be lots of lessons for all of us from this tragedy.
Jolly Green Giant
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Hogg
Thanks a lot for sending that, could I ask you to send it once more as I didn't get it yet, my e-mail account seems to have been dormant. I've just reactivated it.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.