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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

Old 11th Aug 2016, 12:31
  #821 (permalink)  
 
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Float or bounce

SLF here.

So they talk about a long float and the decision re GA, but they don't actually mention a bounce or any ground contact. What am I missing ?

Yes I have read all the posts to date.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 12:34
  #822 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO an occasional manual sim exercise is no substitute for doing it every day in the real ac/. However, I do appreciate and sympathise with the long-haul guys, with 3/4 pilots, who have to share out 8 landings a month along with autoland recurrency. It's not an easy solution, and it might be those pilots, who at the end of a long boring sector, are faced with the need to suddenly sharpen up and re-discover those long hidden skills. Difficult; eve more so if they were never there in the first place.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 12:35
  #823 (permalink)  
 
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Our mob drill into us on conversion to type that we must ensure that thrust is set and that positive rate of climb is established BEFORE the gear is retracted- all of this to avoid what happened at DXB.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 12:37
  #824 (permalink)  
 
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When will GCAA release detailed hours, last check, last medical of the crew?

Did crew failing to power up led to best outcome? ie., frame just settled within airfield and everyone got out safely.

What would have happened if they spooled up late?
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 12:45
  #825 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't this topic more about possible mode confusion than hand flying skills behind the power curve this time?
Possibly, however if you're in tune with your machine you'll quickly realise through the seat of your pants the power didn't come on like you thought is was going to when you hit the button.

Originally Posted by notapilot15
When will GCAA release detailed hours, last check, last medical of the crew?
Come on notapilot, what is so important about those that they can't wait for at least the interim report? What will they prove? Fair enough we discuss what might have gone wrong, but gory details like medicals and dates of last check? Seriously?

Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 11th Aug 2016 at 14:09.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 13:14
  #826 (permalink)  
 
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RAT 5 and Olster - excellent posts and I would only add that the problems observed in basic handling and airmanship go deeper than type, line and recurrent training; the basic disciplines that we would have learnt are simply not being taught or examined as comprehensively as they once were - ask an instructor at one of the larger ATO's, training cadet's for low-cost and also EK at the moment in the U.S. to demonstrate proper attitude flying and I think you would be surprised at how basic professional pilot training has been eroded in the interest of cost saving over the past fifteen odd years.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 13:21
  #827 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
but gory details like medicals and dates of last check? Seriously?
Am I spoiled by Debby? If I recall correctly NTSB gives out these within first couple of days of investigation, to reassure public crew are valid and current.

Captain, when I said medical, I meant date of last medical check, not gory details.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 13:50
  #828 (permalink)  
 
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if you're in tune with your machine you'll qucikly realise through the seat of your pants the power didn't come on like you thought is was going to when you hit the button.
Agreed however one thing about the 777 is there is no pitch power couple so on a goaround you still have to pull back quite hard (whether the thrust comes up or not!)whereas on say, a 737 you are pushing forward on a goaround.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 13:55
  #829 (permalink)  
 
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And do the systems relief the pilots enough, to give them that extra capacity
I am of the opinion that there is a point where the automation stops freeing up mental capacity and starts eating into it. I often see busy ATC environments where the PM is tapping away at the FMC trying to get something to happen when really all we need to do is lift the nose and reduce thrust or something similar. Sometimes I just tell them to stop and explain how we'll do it so that they can rejoin the party.
I feel for pilots who have not had a few good years of manually flying before joining an operation that is heavy on automation because they haven't developed the skill set to the degree that older pilots have, basically it is an uphill battle for all but the most talented ones.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 14:21
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Question RE issue of climb rate

What seems to be missing is why positive climb was ' called' perhaps prematurely. SLF here but generally familiar with energy issues. Even near landing speed, there is a LOT of interia available for what might be called a zoom climb- trading speed for altitude in short term. NO additional thrust required. However after perhaps a few hundered feet gain at low speed, without a major change in energy available ( thrust) or a major decrease in drag, the plane will then drop or stall.

Perhaps- just perhaps- a premature callout of positive rate or positive climb in this case was significant.

Would there be any advantage in say counting to three to five seconds AFTER observing on insruments a positive change in altitude BEFORE calling out Positive Rate or Positive Climb. ??

Last edited by CONSO; 11th Aug 2016 at 14:22. Reason: typos
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 14:37
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Even near landing speed, there is a LOT of interia available for what might be called a zoom climb- trading speed for altitude in short term. NO additional thrust required. However after perhaps a few hundered feet gain at low speed, withoutr a mmajor change in energy available ( thrust) or a major decrease in drag, the plane will then drop.
Even near landing speed, there is a LOT of interia available for what might be called a zoom climb- trading speed for altitude in short term. NO additional thrust required. However after perhaps a few hundered feet gain at low speed, withoutr a mmajor change in energy available ( thrust) or a major decrease in drag, the plane will then drop.
No, if there is no thrust on (or only approach thrust) you won't get anywhere near "a few hundred feet" high. A zoom climb won't happen.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 14:46
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Even near landing speed, there is a LOT of interia available for what might be called a zoom climb- trading speed for altitude in short term.
Google inertia.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 15:03
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momentum might be better
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 15:22
  #834 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer View Post
Google inertia.
Other than my misspelling- I was trying to avoid a parsing of energy issues. perhaps a simple explanation would be to consider how a roller coaster works. Starting at the top of a ' hill' the coaster drops at increasing speed due to energy imparted by gravity (coaster falls to earth ) and gains speed - energy gained is a function of velocity squared. Then what happens, the coaster goes uphill, trading speed( velocity) for altitude and approaches zero velocity. NO additional thrust- energy input is needed to ' climb ' . ETC. I was trying to avoid any form of calculation based on lack of specific data ( speed- altitude- drag- lift, etc ) and instead to simply frame what can give a momentary indication of " climb" or climb rate simply due to energy states involved. Whether a zoom of 50, 100, 200 feet was available for this particular case cannot be determined absent specific data, configuration, gear, flaps, wind, idle thrust, direction, etc .
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 15:33
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the 777 is there is no pitch power couple
There is, but the fancy pants computers make it feel like there isn't. Don't forget, the 777 is fly by wire, despite Boeing's attempts to make it look like it isn't.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 17:20
  #836 (permalink)  
 
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No t if you believe recent posts

Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
Could they have missed a short touch down bouncing their 777 just strong enough to inhibit the TOGA button while not manually moving the thrust levers max forward?
Rumours suggest GA called during flare, at 30-40 feet. Too high to disable TOGA. But that is just one of many "inside stories" here. Another says they bounced. That might do it.

So which inside story to believe?

What I dont believe is that a light T7 couldn't power through the problem if the throttles were firewalled. Which makes me thing there is more to this story....

One engine might struggle with the temp and pressure at dxb. Two has no trouble taking off at MTOW. I just don't get the struggle to get +ROC. Even if wheels up was a bit premature.

One more thing. A firefighter died, which is sad. But how was he that close? In this day and age you squirt foam from a safe distance inside a cabin. His death is as confusing as the crash. No disrespect intended, clearly he was putting his life on the line to save others. Credit where it is due.
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 18:06
  #837 (permalink)  
 
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Who knows?

Originally Posted by aussiepax View Post
SLF here.

So they talk about a long float and the decision re GA, but they don't actually mention a bounce or any ground contact. What am I missing ?

Yes I have read all the posts to date.
Early rumours talked about a bounce. Later rumours talk about a ga at 30-40ft during flare. Neither may be true. It's a rumour network....
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 19:12
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Still no information as to

1. "Why the GA was initiated in the first place".

2. And "Why Positive Rate was called out".
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 19:25
  #839 (permalink)  
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Something that's been bothering me as I've watched this thread develop, ever since I first learned (or relearned, I think I knew it once) that TOGA is inhibited by the squat switches..

If TOGA is commanded in this situation, is there any aural or visual warning?

One of the basic precepts of user interface design is that if an action is commanded and it can't happen, the user should be made aware.

I know that the cockpit is a busy place during a go-around, and that pilots are fully committed in managing the situation, but it's not such an abnormal occurance that an additional klaxon or bell would be sensory overload, and surely you'd rather know in time to push the throttles forward? Accidental commanding of TOGA in a non-safety critical situation - in the cruise or taxying to the gate - seems vanishingly unlikely to occur and if it does and there's an alert, no harm done. Presumably that's why there's a suppression circuit in there anyway.

(It's also not a complex addition: I know this is the thing that every armchair expert says, but in this case if there's anything less complicated than checking if the TOGA system is suppressed when the button's pushed, I'm hard pushed to guess what it might be)
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Old 11th Aug 2016, 19:28
  #840 (permalink)  
 
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Still no information as to

1. "Why the GA was initiated in the first place".

2. And "Why Positive Rate was called out".
Well, we havenít had a statement from the authorities but we can have a good guess:

1. Aircraft not in the right place and/or at the correct speed to execute a normal landing?

2. Because the aircraft was climbing away from the ground, albeit not for very long?
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