EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

[ThunderclapMike]

Those acars notices show flipped breakers. The final one is the breaker that controls spoilers 1 and 2 on the airbus. Those are on the wing and the fuel tanks on in the wings. Ie the tank exploded. So the question is what caused the smoke that open circuit fault. That could be anything.

[jugofpropwash]

There seems to be a relative consensus that the initial 90 degree turn to the left could have been to clear traffic while initiating an emergency decent. However, that would leave the aircraft heading away from the airport. Assuming a fire/smoke, and possibly a resultant loss of comms, they would have wanted to land as soon as possible. Could they have initiated a right turn in an attempt to return to their original heading, but been overcome mid-turn and thus the 360?

[LBCguy]

As for the lack of a terrorist group claiming credit, keep the self-radicalized concept in mind. The perpetrators of the Paris attacks weren't working under direct control or orders from DAESH, they were acting on their own operational control.

If... IF... there ends up being a terror element to this, it might be some self-radicalized person or cell behind it, inspired by DAESH, BUT working independently of DAESH or whomever. DAESH, or whomever, won't "claim credit" for this until after it's actually proven to be a bomb.

If they were to claim credit for this, and it ends up being a technical issue that caused it, it would discredit the organization who claimed credit.

[ThunderclapMike]

I agree it sounds like a avionics suite fire on the right side that started with an electrical short in the lav. Does anyone know if egypt air allows lithium batteries in the cargo hold because the low quality ones can overheat and cause a fire in the foward cargo hold which just so happens to be next to the avionics suite. That also would have smoke on the flight deck and in the cockpit too.

[Wageslave]

Pace, you send a particularly strong and unpalatable message if you whack someone in their own backyard as opposed to on the street. You would make it an even stronger message if you ostentatiously whack them the instant they step over their threshold. There's no need for collateral damage - the message has got through. Burning the house down can remain a valid fear for the future.
And if you're out to cause their nation maximum damage you don't need to indulge in flag-waving like claiming responsibility. Indeed failure to do so causes even more upset and anxiety to the victim through the uncertainty.

[Wageslave]

ECAM will report on systems as placarded on an intact and undamaged airframe. Who knows what warnings will pop up in the event of physical damage due to blast, impact or fire where it affects black boxes, sensors or cable runs?
If severe damage onboard is suspected we might do well treat those messages as of questionable reliability.

[JosV]

ACARS

Both the windows messages are not about the windows being open. The code WHC stands for Window Heat Computer, and this has to do with de-icing.

As for a emergency decent, this is procedure for either cabin depressurization, or fire/smoke on board.

A quick 90 degree turn? Either to get out of the flight lane (not sure if this is company procedure), or just airman-ship to keep positive G while pitching the nose down for rapid decent.

Why no communication? Either the pilots were too busy, or simply the radios were not operating anymore. Did they change xponder code to 7700?

[logansi]

Yeah I was thinking along the same lines, how likely would it be for corrupt ecam dada due to damage to the airframe. If it was a bomb or other explosion it seems it did not destroy the aircraft instantly.

Also this might sound stupid but could a shock wave set off the window sensors?

[clark y]

Windscreen fault causing fire?

[ThunderclapMike]

yes it would. Fire would lead to the shutdown of the entire suite. I think the 90 degree turn had to do with loss of spoilers.

[LMCF]

Originally Posted by takata

Hi all,
it looks to be a genuine ACARS report :
source : EgyptAir flight data show smoke alerts - CNN.com

IMHO this ACAR report could be trigered by a windshield/window arcing. Take a look on fcom
LMCF

[CONSO]

RE ACARS

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT

Wondering - anti ice probably means for whatever reason- temp sensor ? or FO ? turned on electric anti - ice
something shorted and started a fire - then sensor wiring burned thru- thus the R fixed window sensor?
about a min iater flight control unit went off line

then total failure due to fire in electronic bay ??

[bloom]

Wouldn't ACARS report on the ground? When was the last time the avionics bay was opened? Wouldn't ACARS report that ? Look there first if it's terrorist activity. It would have to be the first place that i looked

[JosV]

Not sure if my previous message is waiting for moderation, but I'm new here, so forgive me if it duplicates.

ATA code 561200 and 561100 indicate window panes in the cockpit area. WHC 2 means Window Heat Computer (number 2), which points at the anti-icing system for the cockpit windows. This has nothing to do with opening windows, which is not even possible in a pressurized cockpit, as the sliding window opens first inwards before it slides back. You can't do this in flight.

There is also no indication in the ACARS data about cabin depressurization, but there is for smoke.
Smoke/fire would have the pilots immediately don their oxy masks and do a rapid decent.

I'm not sure about individual company procedures, or whether this is standard over the Mediterranean area, but it could also be airman-ship to make a sharp 90 degree turn while pitching the nose down to retain positive G (bit more comfortable), or it could be standard procedure to get out of the flight routes away from other aircraft.

It does seem all the errors seem to come from the F/O side of the cockpit, including the latter FCU2 and SEC3 faults.

Not making any conclusions yet though.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Does closing the side window on an A320 make or break the warning circuit? If it makes it, then a wire burning through or a solder joint melting and breaking the circuit might be reported as an open window.

[FE Hoppy]

Originally Posted by clark y

Windscreen fault causing fire?

Looks a possibility.
Could be the controller.
Ive had a window heat controller overheat many years ago on a nimrod. Filled the cockpit quite quickly and I got to the box before the CB tripped. It was easily accessible to a flight Engineer who knew his way around the equipment racks. Very different proposition on a modern 2 seater.

Lack of a mayday or squark is puzzling though!

[CONSO]

Originally Posted by bloom

Wouldn't ACARS report on the ground? When was the last time the avionics bay was opened? Wouldn't ACARS report that ? Look there first if it's terrorist activity. It would have to be the first place that i looked

for ACARS to report requires power- and a few other items to turn on- otherwise the system would be overloaded with every airplane in every airport reporting along with all those in the Air.

[jabird]

Sabotage motives v small fires spread fast?

"If they were to claim credit for this, and it ends up being a technical issue that caused it, it would discredit the organization who claimed credit."

This didn't stop multiple claims being made after Lockerbie, all done by the next morning. IIRC, PA103 was also supposed to be over the Atlantic at the time of detonation, but local traffic and a delayed departure sent it over Lockerbie instead.

If this plane was downed deliberately then a marine ditching means it takes longer to find out the whole picture. Look how quickly they worked out what happened with Germanwings, whereas the bulk of MH370 remains unfound.

I really don't want to end up reading that this is a terror strike, but nobody admitting anything so far doesn't mean it isn't (hopefully that's better logic than Trump's, but that doesn't take much).

Taking earlier comments about the smooth nature of the initial turns, if there was a fire or explosion, the suggestion is a small one getting out of hand, rather than a more sudden one? But if this was anything like AC797, why turn 360 over sea instead of heading towards the nearest available runway?

If there was any form of sabotage in the cockpit (and I don't think anyone has ruled out this being from the crew, we know of previous disputes and can't ignore MS 990), would the descent be smooth like that?

We all want answers, because most of us here have some sort of job depending on both crew and SLF confidence. Of course the papers love the headlines "holiday jet blown out the sky", but CDG-CAI is a much more mundane (in headline terms) business and VFR* route, but still enough reasons for somebody to want to down a plane if they had the means. If the target was specifically tourism, would you not go for a flight to one of the resorts? I know there is a rather large group of ancient tetrahedral structures in the Cairo suburbs, but the tourist volumes are (were) all on the beaches.

I don't think we can draw many more conclusions until the boxes are recovered, but for all the noise that inevitably surrounds these events, a small fire getting out of hand is looking as plausible as any more sinister theory from what we have so far.

*to avoid double jargon confusion, in this sense I mean VFR as visiting friends and relatives

[costalpilot]

the flight ctrl computer acars reports tell me the craft was in peril within three minutes of the first acars reports despite the auto redundancy of the systems. the lack of reports thereafter tells me that the reporting system was compromised and broken after only three minutes. I would think it would take a hell of a lot of heat to do all that so quickly.

or, we dont have ALL the info yet. imagine that.

[Ranger One]

Those ACARS messages are intriguing. I'm not and never have been a bus driver so don't know the systems but... observations:

1. The messages span a period of several minutes. That fairly obviously - to me anyway - precludes a catastrophic event precipitating instant structural failure and breakup. So it's almost certainly not Pan Am 103 or TWA 800.

2. What messages would we expect to see in the event of a sudden depressurization caused by a breach of the pressure hull? What would we expect to see in the event of a crew-initiated depressurization via the outflow valves in an effort to - perhaps - deal with a fire/smoke condition? If there was a depressurization from any cause whilst the aircraft systems were still otherwise substantially intact and functional I would think we would absolutely expect to see a message related to that?

3. This sets me thinking; if - IF - this was an act of terrorism perhaps we should be looking at a device or devices that were incendiary rather than explosive in nature.

4. Is there any further ACARS encoding that would identify *which* lav smoke detector activated? Or will that have to await FDR recovery?

5. The 320 main avionics compartment is directly beneath the flight deck and forward lav... correct?