EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo
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Acars supposesd to show fire in toilet and then flight deck.. How would this make aircraft complete a 60 degree left turn followed by a 360 degree right turn then a plunge to fl15 before radar contact lost?
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Only speculation but has this accident (smoke in the lavatories) anything to do with the security risk identified some years ago related to oxygen generators in lavatories? See http://www.airsafenews.com/2011/03/faa-orders-removal-of-lavatory-oxygen.html
This security directive was implemented by i.a. US and EU airlines. No idea whether it was implemented by Egyptair as well.
This security directive was implemented by i.a. US and EU airlines. No idea whether it was implemented by Egyptair as well.
@tatelyle: Are you referring to the fact that the front row in aircraft of most airlines in the region is a (non)designated smoking section ? Indeed a dropped or discarded butt landing on the O2 hose could do the trick...
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Options
many, many options still open...
When you look at recent accidents, a loss of control sequence can run Within a timeframe of 4 minutes.
More surprising, in the case of fire turning out to be a cause, is the relatively short time between first sensing and the actual crash time estimate. In general a fire or smoke caused crash event takes much longer to run. Take for example the Swiss Canadian and Joh'burg cases and a number of Middle Eastern cases.
So another option could be actions following system/fire warnings leading to actions causing loss of control.
When you look at recent accidents, a loss of control sequence can run Within a timeframe of 4 minutes.
More surprising, in the case of fire turning out to be a cause, is the relatively short time between first sensing and the actual crash time estimate. In general a fire or smoke caused crash event takes much longer to run. Take for example the Swiss Canadian and Joh'burg cases and a number of Middle Eastern cases.
So another option could be actions following system/fire warnings leading to actions causing loss of control.
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CBS news reporting black box located
CBS news reporting as followsEgyptAir Flight 804: Black boxes for crashed airplane located - CBS News
Search crews have located the data recorders for EgyptAir Flight 804 close to an area where human remains and debris from the crashed flight have been found, Egyptian government sources confirmed to CBS News.
Search crews have located the data recorders for EgyptAir Flight 804 close to an area where human remains and debris from the crashed flight have been found, Egyptian government sources confirmed to CBS News.
@San Diego kid: I can assure you that on all recent flights I have taken with MS to/from Europe, and most on Turkish (and there were quite a few), I could smell cigarette smoke, and there was no doubt as to where it was coming from.
many, many options still open...
I guess I'll leave it to others more familiar with the A320 to discuss how credible that is on the type and how it ties in or not with other known credible data.
While the ACARS messages have been confirmed as genuine, I would continue to exercise caution when treating the ECAM warnings on face value. These are computer generated messages, and they could occur under two conditions:
1) a fully functional system, operating as designed
2) a compromised system, with unpredictable behavior
In the second case, the messages only indicate a fault with the entire system, and have nothing to do with any nominal fault displayed.
1) a fully functional system, operating as designed
2) a compromised system, with unpredictable behavior
In the second case, the messages only indicate a fault with the entire system, and have nothing to do with any nominal fault displayed.
Last edited by andrasz; 21st May 2016 at 12:26.
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21/05/2016 21:04
CBS are reporting that the black box data recorder of downed EgyptAir flight 804 has been found in the area close to where the debris was discovered. They quote 'Egyptian government sources' but nothing has been confirmed yet.
A crew from Britain's ITV News on the ground in Cairo also claim EgyptAir are not denying the claim.
BREAKING EgyptAir Flight #MS804 from Paris to Cairo disappeared from radar during the night | AIRLIVE.net
CBS are reporting that the black box data recorder of downed EgyptAir flight 804 has been found in the area close to where the debris was discovered. They quote 'Egyptian government sources' but nothing has been confirmed yet.
A crew from Britain's ITV News on the ground in Cairo also claim EgyptAir are not denying the claim.
BREAKING EgyptAir Flight #MS804 from Paris to Cairo disappeared from radar during the night | AIRLIVE.net
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ACARS messages: You mean this may have been a fire under the f/o's side window, just like this one in an Egyptair 777 ??
And this was not an electrical fire. The reason for this fire and others like it in the region is likely to be linked to the way crews operate. But I cannot tell you the reason why this happens, because nobody will talk about it. Not even the NTSB or AAIB.
And this was not an electrical fire. The reason for this fire and others like it in the region is likely to be linked to the way crews operate. But I cannot tell you the reason why this happens, because nobody will talk about it. Not even the NTSB or AAIB.
And your point is what ?
A crew from Britain's ITV News on the ground in Cairo also claim EgyptAir are not denying the claim.
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Hi tatelyle,
Er.... The accident report is available from the Egyptian CAA website (but very slow to download). Another copy here B777_SU-GBP.pdf
See page 35.
The cause was attributed to missing electrical wire clamps and sleeving which allowed the PVC covered Stainless Steel wire around the FO's O2 hose to rub, cause an electrical short circuit and start a fire which was then fed by the crew's O2.
In what way is that linked to the way the crews operate?
And this was not an electrical fire. The reason for this fire and others like it in the region is likely to be linked to the way crews operate. But I cannot tell you the reason why this happens, because nobody will talk about it. Not even the NTSB or AAIB.
See page 35.
The cause was attributed to missing electrical wire clamps and sleeving which allowed the PVC covered Stainless Steel wire around the FO's O2 hose to rub, cause an electrical short circuit and start a fire which was then fed by the crew's O2.
In what way is that linked to the way the crews operate?
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Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
@San Diego kid: I can assure you that on all recent flights I have taken with MS to/from Europe, and most on Turkish (and there were quite a few), I could smell cigarette smoke, and there was no doubt as to where it was coming from.
- Don't know about Egyptair but I fly Turkish a lot often at the front of the plane and I have never, not even once, seen anyone smoking
@San Diego kid: I can assure you that on all recent flights I have taken with MS to/from Europe, and most on Turkish (and there were quite a few), I could smell cigarette smoke, and there was no doubt as to where it was coming from.
- Don't know about Egyptair but I fly Turkish a lot often at the front of the plane and I have never, not even once, seen anyone smoking
@Birmingham: you never see, only smell. Most noticeable on 73's where cockpit air gets vented to the rear of the pax cabin. On the big ones it is undetectable.
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The CBS News report
EgyptAir Flight 804: Black boxes for crashed airplane located, Egypt government sources claim - CBS News
seems to have lost something in translation.
The black boxes being "located" would mean they detected the pingers, though this is not explained.
CBS News also reports that the ACARS reports indicate "smoke was coming from one of the engines."
_________________________
A NY Times 'expert' focuses on loss of the autoflight control computer while flying near maximum speed and altitude, and then the loss of the spoiler elevator controller.
EgyptAir Flight 804: Black boxes for crashed airplane located, Egypt government sources claim - CBS News
seems to have lost something in translation.
The black boxes being "located" would mean they detected the pingers, though this is not explained.
CBS News also reports that the ACARS reports indicate "smoke was coming from one of the engines."
_________________________
A NY Times 'expert' focuses on loss of the autoflight control computer while flying near maximum speed and altitude, and then the loss of the spoiler elevator controller.
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Since the days of the Wright brothers all commercial a/c accidents have been caused by one or more of the following:
1. Weather
2. Structural failure
3. In flight fire
4. Onboard explosion
5. Pilot error
6. Hijack
7. Pilot suicide
8. Crew incapacitation
...and don't forget Occam's Razor!
1. Weather
2. Structural failure
3. In flight fire
4. Onboard explosion
5. Pilot error
6. Hijack
7. Pilot suicide
8. Crew incapacitation
...and don't forget Occam's Razor!
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Someone asked a couple of pages back if something was DC2 powered. WHC2 is DC2 powered as is CIDS CH2, FCU2 and SEC3. Can't find what powers Avionics smoke but there are a whole lot more things that would have shown up if DC2 had completely failed.
Having had two engine flameouts at altitude I can tell you it's a very benign event. You get some yaw but nothing like a engine loss at V1. The aircraft decelerates slowly and that rate decreases after selecting Max continuous power on the other engine. You have plenty of time to call ATC and get a clearance to descend before the aircraft reaches clean speed. There is no need for a off airway turn unless directed by ATC.
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Footage of the debris
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=QRZlfCIb8qE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=QRZlfCIb8qE
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DING. That's why I posed the question I did a couple of pages back; there's an oddball collection of items in the messages - but most significant is what there isn't in those messages. And that there wasn't complete silence; the fact that we have any messages at all is also highly significant.