EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

[JetHutek]

I have been saying this since MH370 and AirAsia....why not fit GPS spot locators in the tail of aircraft? The type that hikers use are waterproof, report every minute (could be set to 10 seconds) and could be attached to an uninterruptable power supply in the tail. Even if ship power goes out, these units have batteries that can power them for days. Every aircraft in the world (private aircraft notwithstanding) can have position known to GPS precision at all moments up to any impact (and if on land, could keep running for days.) If submerged to a seabed you would lose the location due to depth and signal, but you would know where an aircraft hit the water....And cost? This can be done for LESS than 100 dollar per plane, per year.

[ATM_ANS Custode]

Originally Posted by skirkp

If you look at the seabed map a few posts ago on this page (14), and measure 300 km from Alexandria, you find an arc that is on the smooth area south of the northeast-southwest ridges and well south of the rough terrain that is closer to Crete. I hope that will speed the recovery of clues to the wreck.

... in this ICAO chart you can see the red ellipse marks the last contact area of MSR804.
It seems the seabed is smoother and less deep than further north. Unfortunately you need oceanographic maps for some precise depth measurements...

[Uplinker]

I have not seen the RADAR data, only the report in the Times, but looks to me (an Airbus line pilot) as some are saying: like a deliberate 90deg turn away from the airway followed by an emergency descent, so I am thinking decompression.

Then, halfway down they might have thought 'hang on we are heading towards high ground now', hence the right turn - an orbit or a PPOS hold? - to keep them over the sea while still descending to FL100.

Then something happened. Perhaps the crew oxygen ran out or failed in some way, but the aircraft then appears to have exceeded Vne and broken up?

My thoughts are with them and their families.

[Carjockey]

We should be ashamed, dont blame the coffers, blame the people who make the regs in the first place for the public airspace, this should be stipulated no a/c can fly without a new and considerably improved FDR/CVR detection/recovery system in place which is not from the dark ages.

Well said captains log.

[EEngr]

why not fit GPS spot locators in the tail of aircraft?

Like this one?


This just serves to demonstrate that anything with an energy source could be hazardous. An energy source that the crew cannot disconnect, even more so.

This (787 ELT) was not jettisonable. If it was, knowledgeable hijackers could simply ditch it and change course. On the other hand, the act of ditching the ELT would activate it, raising an alarm that something went wrong at this location.

The principle argument against jettisonable ELTs is their design, certification and maintenance cost. Ensuring that a part which could intentionally come loose but not damage the airframe is no small engineering task.

[DCS99]

Originally Posted by dandraka

(note I'm no aviation pro, just an enthusiast)

Last info I came upon around a year ago is essentially nothing. There seem to be thoughts thrown around about adding GPS coordinates to the ACARS messages plus preventing the pilot from turning off ACARS. But no concrete action yet. ...snip.

GPS location is transmitted.
Download the .csv files from here

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/contact-lost-with-egyptair-flight-804/

[notapilot15]

Does anyone know if any revisions to CV/FDR design are in the pipeline, after MH370 and AF447, such as auto-jettisoning, floating units?

I find it rather depressing that here we are, several years on, with the risk, again, of potentially being unable to locate the data recorders.

Electable and floatable CVFDRs are available for more than 15 years and widely used in military applications. Technology is a matured and proven.

Regular Solid state CVFDR costs $5,000, Ejectable/Flotable one costs $25,000.

So airline has to spend somewhere between $20,000 - $40,000 per plane.

$$Millions per lost life equation doesn't add up to that incremental cost, so they pretend as if technology is not available. We will be having this discussion for decades to come.

Some countries were talking about adding mandatory operative ADS-B and 15 minute location reporting thru ACARS or some other means.

I would say at some point, pilots should ignore the aviate, navigate and communicate and change to communicate, aviate and navigate.

Unless you call out for help, cavalry is not going to come on its own at 12 knots.

[trickii1]

Causes and Speculation

There is always a great deal of speculation about the causes after every disaster but in truth we will not know until a full investigation has been undertaken.Even than we might still not have the answers as with the Air France disaster off the coast of Brazil. The biggest fear with this and other disasters that the governments and authorities just want a resolution without finding the truth.Latest speculation of a terrorist incident may have some merit.A hijack goes wrong ending up with a struggle with sky marshal's. A dispossed individual with the intent of flying the airliner into a Cairo target...we do know at this stage.

[wiggy]

I would say at some point, pilots should ignore the aviate, navigate and communicate and change to communicate, aviate and navigate.

Unless you call out for help, cavalry is not going to come on its own at 12 knots.

I'm really not sure I follow you logic with that statement.

Surely aviate always has to be paramount - neglecting to do that when the chips are down and instead spending time shouting "help" might mean the cavalry arriving at 12 knots or 120 knots could be irrelevant.

[16024]

Couldn't agree more, Wiggy.
The very first thing the media and the muggles are interested in is whether "The Pilot" made a distress call. Those on the flight deck are probably far too busy trying to keep everybody alive, or they are already gone. If we do get a mayday out, it's not for the sake of ghouls or the press. It's so that every other Fe***r can get out of the way!

[jxf63]

Right, in the same way that on seeing the truck come through the central reservation towards you at a closing speed of 150mph you don't dial 999 and order an ambulance

Now imagine something goes horribly wrong when you're driving 3 times as fast.... along the edge of a cliff.... on ice.... at night.

First order of business is to stay alive, no ? Not much point in calling for help to recover your mangled remains...

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by DCS99

GPS location is transmitted.
Download the .csv files from here

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/c...ir-flight-804/

Just for completeness, the FR24 track shows a dead stable altitude, direction and speed for the period of time between the attempted communication and 00:29:33 Z. This is within a short number of seconds of the declared 00:30Z loss of primary radar contact. It is quite likely that at 0:29:33Z something happened that caused one of
1 - The ADSB antenna/cable structure to become disconnected from the transmitter
2 - The ADSB system to loose power

Actual FR24 ADSB data has historically proven to be quite accurate in heading, speed, position, and altitude. The errors seen have occurred where people were looking at projected track data or trying to determine to exactly which second a transmission relates.

Once times (to the second) related to the primary radar data are released, I suspect we will find the total time between flying straight and level and having completed the claimed 450 degrees of turning and 27,000 feet of descent will be 30-60 seconds (on the basis that if Greece lost radar contact any later than 00:30:35 Z they would have reported it as 0:31 Z.). That rate of yaw and descent has no relationship to any maneuver an Airbus could be commanded to make.

I would suggest that, despite the very clear graphics presented by the media, the raw radar data will not actually support the image we have been provided of an aircraft maneuvering; But will be more consistent with the radar image of MH17 after it started to disintegrate. (Note - I am not advancing any particular theory as to why this has happened).

As to, 'why can't we have better tracking', even if a GPS and its associated transmitter was perfectly able to continue to transmit till it sank (or ejected), it still could be a very significant distance from 'the important bits' (which ever they might be) of the wreckage as there is considerable potential for differential motion as parts fall from the sky and/or drift down in the water.

[mockingjay]

So the Egyptians claim they have found the wreckage. Yet nearly 12 since their claim we have seen non evidence whatsoever that this is the case. Yes there was an oil slick but an oil slick was spotted during the MH370 search and it was unconnected.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by rugmuncher

I'm pretty sure there are 66 families out there who may disagree with your view.

You have competely missed the point, which was that aviating takes priority over communicating. Always.

The object being to avoid having any mangled remains ...

[highflyer40]

Mocking jay-

The have also found bodily remains, personal effects, and suitcases. And it was the Greeks who claimed that first off

Contrary to what most people think nowadays, search crews aren't there to enlighten you, they are there to do there job. Press releases will be made in due time.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

I find it quite an extraordinary coincidence that another aircraft has 'disappeared' in the "blind spot" of two ATC stations. Of all the places for it to happen...

As an alternative to the currently popular theory of criminal intervention, how sure can we be that this wasn't either:
a) deliberate crew action; or
b) spatial disorientation following a distracting occurrence (such as rapid depressurisation)?

[Vc10Tail]

The position must have been close to or after the TOD.

The turns deemed deliberate rather than haphazard...as if to avoid or reactive turns and a descent due/overdue.

Was there CAT forcasted in the area?

For body parts to be manifest it was not a controlled ditch.

Too many jigsawz to fit..too soon.

Let us hope the FDR/CVR are recovered and intelligible.

May the deceased rest in peace.My sincere condolences to all affected, sympathies to Egypt Air and Egypt as a nation.

Let us get facts before dancing the tune of terrorism please.Most passengers were Muslims.No terror organization has made a claim...so let more facts surface.

[RexBanner]

If the ECAM alerts on AvHerald are genuine then it looks to me like a fire in the avionics bay, followed by emergency descent QRH smoke drill followed by things getting out of hand very nastily and very quickly. RIP to all crew and pax.

[Smott999]

On this aircraft is avionics bay directly below forward lav?
Apologies I am not an expert.

[SysDude]

On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received