B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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I think it's an illusion with the refraction of the clouds getting more sparse around the ceiling. It looks like there was no attempt to pull up before impact which is rather puzzling I must say.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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RT (Russia Today) FZ fatigue reports
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slL2KMoM3p8
https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydu...atigue-report/
This is what emi------tion and white slavery is all about.
EK, AY, QR next to come!
https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydu...atigue-report/
This is what emi------tion and white slavery is all about.
EK, AY, QR next to come!
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What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap.
Pilots(old school) like Centaurus/411A(RIP) and myself have been saying this for years on this forum.It needs to be repeated again and again.And the problem is in the training dept,the board and the SOP clutter in the manuals.Ive flown all over in expat land and I have seen it all.Its terrifying.
Yes,fatigue is an issue but at the end of the day,you can refuse a flight if you're too tired.In most airlines anyway.I dont know zip about Flydubai.I have tended to avoid the ME like the plague.I never saw the appeal.
I dont know what happened in Rostov but I do know that we need to call a worldwide conference right now.It should be chaired by PILOTS and they should at the very minimum include reps of SOUTHWEST,QANTAS,and LUFTHANSA..Top of the agenda should be a refocus on airmanship and stick and rudder.Pilots must be on the board and they must be the right pilots,not yes men.Fatigue and rostering also to be addressed.
The travelling public deserve no less.Our profession likewise.
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Rananim,
In todays hiring needs,im afraid manual skills arent put in the forefront,possibly maybe only in china.
Considering the rostering,the legal late shift ending at 2am followed by 2 pm start is a killer in itself.
Computer is puking out a legal schedule,a continuous circadian rhythm buster,is unfortunately another accident to happen and not only in flydubai.
In todays hiring needs,im afraid manual skills arent put in the forefront,possibly maybe only in china.
Considering the rostering,the legal late shift ending at 2am followed by 2 pm start is a killer in itself.
Computer is puking out a legal schedule,a continuous circadian rhythm buster,is unfortunately another accident to happen and not only in flydubai.
What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap.
....... have been saying this for years on this forum.It needs to be repeated again and again........
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[QUOTE]Yes,fatigue is an issue but at the end of the day,you can refuse a flight if you're too tired.... [Unless you work in the ME]
I dont know what happened in Rostov but I do know that we need to call a worldwide conference right now. It should be chaired by PILOTS and they should at the very minimum include reps of SOUTHWEST, QANTAS, and LUFTHANSA..Top of the agenda should be a refocus on airmanship and stick and rudder. Pilots must be on the board and they must be the right pilots, not yes men. Fatigue and rostering also to be addressed./QUOTE]
Perhaps we are our own worst enemies. Whilst i agree whole heartedly with everything you say, there are other pilots waiting in the wings to fill the vacancies as a result of resignations in airlines all over the world... And the ME airlines know this and use it to their recruitment advantage. But still, good people resign.
We don't know what happened here...yet. Knowing the region of origin of this operator, one suspects they will do everything to deflect the responsibility from themselves. They probably have several statements prepared based on the findings to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Probably the actions right now will be about damage limitation.
I guess one remedy is for every ME airline is to just divert to Tel Aviv when the **** hits the fan, because normal methods of communication are lost on this lot!!!
I dont know what happened in Rostov but I do know that we need to call a worldwide conference right now. It should be chaired by PILOTS and they should at the very minimum include reps of SOUTHWEST, QANTAS, and LUFTHANSA..Top of the agenda should be a refocus on airmanship and stick and rudder. Pilots must be on the board and they must be the right pilots, not yes men. Fatigue and rostering also to be addressed./QUOTE]
Perhaps we are our own worst enemies. Whilst i agree whole heartedly with everything you say, there are other pilots waiting in the wings to fill the vacancies as a result of resignations in airlines all over the world... And the ME airlines know this and use it to their recruitment advantage. But still, good people resign.
We don't know what happened here...yet. Knowing the region of origin of this operator, one suspects they will do everything to deflect the responsibility from themselves. They probably have several statements prepared based on the findings to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Probably the actions right now will be about damage limitation.
I guess one remedy is for every ME airline is to just divert to Tel Aviv when the **** hits the fan, because normal methods of communication are lost on this lot!!!
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As a SLF and non aviator I find all the previous posts quite alarming.
There seems to be a discussion about what to do in a given set of circumstances. I would expect everybody to agree as to what the correct course of action should be. The fact that there are many differing opinions i find quite disconcerting.
There seems to be a discussion about what to do in a given set of circumstances. I would expect everybody to agree as to what the correct course of action should be. The fact that there are many differing opinions i find quite disconcerting.
Above it all we have a Boeing 737 which is a fairly basic aircraft. Provided we are properly trained and rested we can fly it without any of the systems we are discussing here. It will go where we point it.
As a SLF, is you first thought how rested the pilots for your flight will be, or how much the ticket will cost?
You should worry a lot more about how pilots are being used and abused, particulary in areas of the world where unions are not allowed.
Start in the ME forum and read what the FZ and EK pilots have been saying now for a very long time, and why you should not be surprised this sad accident happened.
You don't find anything about the other big UAE carrier, they took PPRuNe to court and stopped their pilots from posting anything here.
Just that should tell you a thing or two.
Enjoy your flight.
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they took PPRuNe to court and stopped their pilots from posting anything here.
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I have looked at the low resolution flight radar data that is available. The only scenario that fits the information we currently have is flight control failure/malfunction, specifically the trim/horizontal stab. The go around profile and speeds are consistent with a normal go around - initial climb, then shallower climb to accelerate - the ground speed data is absolutely consistent on this. Then all of a sudden, at around a derived IAS of 220+ kts, a nose over and then an avg of 18500 fpm. Two pilots in a low authority gradient environment and neither one takes control? I can't see it. In my mind they were attempting to recover.
I see the comments regarding the parallels with the Kazan accident, but they already performed a safe go-around and they were already expecting to go around again. The disorientation is of course possible, but in my judgement so very unlikely.
As for fatigue. It may or may not be an issue in general terms. But this crew, from the limited info we have, they seemed to make sensible and logical decisions. They held because they had the endurance, weather was above minima with the worst condition forecast as a tempo, they clearly requested levels to keep them out of icing and they already made a successful go-around.
From what I can see, there is no evidence yet of a lack of SA or of poor judgement. No evidence of a stall and disorientation is so unlikely.
I see the comments regarding the parallels with the Kazan accident, but they already performed a safe go-around and they were already expecting to go around again. The disorientation is of course possible, but in my judgement so very unlikely.
As for fatigue. It may or may not be an issue in general terms. But this crew, from the limited info we have, they seemed to make sensible and logical decisions. They held because they had the endurance, weather was above minima with the worst condition forecast as a tempo, they clearly requested levels to keep them out of icing and they already made a successful go-around.
From what I can see, there is no evidence yet of a lack of SA or of poor judgement. No evidence of a stall and disorientation is so unlikely.
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I am sure its been mentioned before, but in the 20000 hrs I did before retirement I would have diverted before the tragic end. These guys had plenty of fuel so after an initial approach and a consideration of the forecast they should have left.
Just because you are saying it Walnut, does not make it right. He had the fuel to hold, and by doing so keep al his options open. Holding like this happens every day.
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Above it all we have a Boeing 737 which is a fairly basic aircraft. Provided we are properly trained and rested we can fly it without any of the systems we are discussing here. It will go where we point it.
The problem SaX, is that we now have a generation of pilots that have never had a person, be it pilot or FLT Eng teach them about their aircraft. There is now only CBT. The quicker you click the quicker you finish. Pass the tech quiz with no idea of what just happened.
From flight school to airliner. The poor buggas never get a chance to learn how to be a pilot.
From flight school to airliner. The poor buggas never get a chance to learn how to be a pilot.
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From flight school to airliner. The poor buggas never get a chance to learn how to be a pilot.
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The most sensible comment I have seen so far Sciolistes. The only thing I would add is the possibility of uncommanded thrust reverser deployment. Although I have no idea of NG inflight protections in this regard. I also agree that they were most likely fighting for control all the way to impact although at that altitude and decent angle, recovery was most likely impossible. Nevertheless, I would have expected to see the wings roll level (or at least start to). Something was stopping those guys from having any influence on the aircraft at all. TR deployment in flight is very rare these days so is probably unlikely but it doesn't sound like fatigue or bad airline management no matter how much it is discussed.
Last edited by Lord Farringdon; 24th Mar 2016 at 09:24.