Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident
Thank you scroggs.
Above all, it's good to know there was no permanent injury.
Above all, it's good to know there was no permanent injury.
I'm also very glad to read that there's no permanent injury - and well handled Scroggs and your team, slightly dodgy but perfectly clear Pan call notwithstanding.
An article that appeared last night on The Conversation is somewhat relevant, but offers no particular hope of any quick fixes.
https://theconversation.com/thousand...ssengers-54863
One question from me, that I hope somebody might be able to answer. What's the investigative mechanism for an incident like this?. It clearly wasn't an accident, so presumably it's not AAIB's job. I know that CAA take a deep interest and publish statistics, and I'm sure the police are interested when there's anything for them to usefully go on. Doubtless Virgin and BALPA are also quite interested.
But what's the exact mechanism for investigating, then reporting, attacks on safety like this - if only so that I can bookmark the likely location of any future reports to read when they come out.
G
An article that appeared last night on The Conversation is somewhat relevant, but offers no particular hope of any quick fixes.
https://theconversation.com/thousand...ssengers-54863
One question from me, that I hope somebody might be able to answer. What's the investigative mechanism for an incident like this?. It clearly wasn't an accident, so presumably it's not AAIB's job. I know that CAA take a deep interest and publish statistics, and I'm sure the police are interested when there's anything for them to usefully go on. Doubtless Virgin and BALPA are also quite interested.
But what's the exact mechanism for investigating, then reporting, attacks on safety like this - if only so that I can bookmark the likely location of any future reports to read when they come out.
G
Well done scroggs 
It sounds well handled and you don't have to justify your actions, nobody with any real flying experience would have questioned it.
As for the R/T, I wouldn't worry, it may not have been textbook, but it was perfectly unambiguous.
We practice things over and over, getting them perfectly right, so that on the day we get them "right enough". Nobody could have been in any doubt hearing that call.
Glad to hear it's only temporary injury to the FO, hopefully he is fully recovered and back flying again soon.
I'm glad you are trying to make a difference while you still have some influence, hopefully it is enough for the powers that be to sit up and take note of what is probably one of the biggest external threats to aviation safety after drones.
It sounds well handled and you don't have to justify your actions, nobody with any real flying experience would have questioned it.
As for the R/T, I wouldn't worry, it may not have been textbook, but it was perfectly unambiguous.
We practice things over and over, getting them perfectly right, so that on the day we get them "right enough". Nobody could have been in any doubt hearing that call.
Glad to hear it's only temporary injury to the FO, hopefully he is fully recovered and back flying again soon.
I'm glad you are trying to make a difference while you still have some influence, hopefully it is enough for the powers that be to sit up and take note of what is probably one of the biggest external threats to aviation safety after drones.
The way I understand these coatings is that they do work. But for only a specific light frequency and do create a reduction of tranceperancy. So as useful as a chocolate tea pot then.
Capt Scroggs
pardon my speculation about Legoland -it did seem to fit the bill well.
Very glad to hear that your colleague is and will be OK , I am sure he must have been very worried for a while given the importance of eyesight in your job.
pardon my speculation about Legoland -it did seem to fit the bill well.
Very glad to hear that your colleague is and will be OK , I am sure he must have been very worried for a while given the importance of eyesight in your job.
Regarding the "safe" energy levels, does anyone know how what the assumptions of the pupil size are? If the "safe" estimates are based on a normal (day adaptation) pupil, wouldn't the resulting figure be an overestimate for a dilated (night adaptation) pupil?
According to wikipedia, a normal diameter of the entrance pupil is about 4mm, ranging from 2mm (bright) to 8mm (dark), so the underestimate might be with a factor between 4-16.
According to wikipedia, a normal diameter of the entrance pupil is about 4mm, ranging from 2mm (bright) to 8mm (dark), so the underestimate might be with a factor between 4-16.
Regarding Legoland, as an entertainment based organisation (and I suspect their operations are highly professional) I would expect them to be aware of the requirements for using lasers and searchlights outside and therefore notified the CAA with the relevant paperwork to obtain prior authorisation.
I have used high powered lasers argon lasers (up to 12 watts) and pulsed Copper Bromide lasers (8KW pep) outdoors and often close (under 2 miles laterally of extended runway centreline) to airports. At all times I had complied with CAA and ATC requirements and never had any issues. Although as a professional working in this field, we were far more aware of the consequences and repercussions if we got it wrong.
I have used high powered lasers argon lasers (up to 12 watts) and pulsed Copper Bromide lasers (8KW pep) outdoors and often close (under 2 miles laterally of extended runway centreline) to airports. At all times I had complied with CAA and ATC requirements and never had any issues. Although as a professional working in this field, we were far more aware of the consequences and repercussions if we got it wrong.
The track at the beginning of this thread shows a easterly departure from LHR 9R and assuming a standard Compton departure the captains estimate of about 8 miles from Heathrow puts the plane just south of Lego land themepark situated in the middle of the crown estate at Windsor. That would fit perfectly with estimates that the l@ser was 1-2 miles off to one side- ie to the north of track.
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Sorry if i missed it but do we have now a firm confirmation that the aircraft was around 8000ft ? If so it must have a very powerful beam, something way beyond what could be laying around Legoland...
Here's a new link to the LiveAtc.net audio, the report of the position of the laser incident is at 2:00 into this nicely edited clip:
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.....0;attach=8695
Sounds to me like he said they were on the LON 220 (or 230?) radial at 13 miles, 8000 feet, heading 275. But, I'm not so sure now with the foreign (to a hillbilly like me
) accents.If Captain Scroggs is unable to comment on specifics at the present time I certainly understand.
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Erm, not sure what you are talking about. No aircraft I have ever heard of had l@ser protective coatings on the windows.
l@sers are very effective against military aircraft which is one reason they are banned I believe. We certainly would never blind an enemy pilot of course. That would be unsportsmanlike.
l@sers are very effective against military aircraft which is one reason they are banned I believe. We certainly would never blind an enemy pilot of course. That would be unsportsmanlike.
I'm afraid you have been reading bad fiction.
You cannot stop an optical l@ser without affecting vision through a port.
You cannot stop an optical l@ser without affecting vision through a port.
l@sers used to listen to conversations are bouncing off the window and the vibration of the window causes doppler shift which is detected. Coatings won't change that one iota.
Last edited by underfire; 17th Feb 2016 at 21:28.
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Interesting question Genghis. I don't know the answer so I'll keep my two penneth brief. I suspect it will all kick off with a MOR, then all agencies with an interest will become involved, CAA, police, AAIB (accident prevention) and ATC for starters, plus Virgin.
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Uhh underfire ?
Not true, look at the coatings of the windows at DMAAC.
You probably meant the Defense Mapping agency aerospace center ??
And where do we find info on window coatings of that agency ?
This definition appears very rarely and is found in the following Acronym Finder categories:
- Military and Government
- Organizations, NGOs, schools, universities, etc.
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Underfire.
I don't think you are really making sense.
Laser rangefinders that are not in the visible spectrum can of course be blocked without causing optical degradation through a port. This cannot be done for a visible laser for the simple reason that visible lasers are in the visual spectrum. To stop them you must block that bit of the visible spectrum. This, by definition degrades the optics.
Any goggles are exactly the same, and unless they block multiple frequencies will only protect against one laser frequency despite there being many out there.
Re the window coatings to protect against listening in.
B@llocks. Some energy will be reflected back, and that's all you need.
I don't think you are really making sense.
Laser rangefinders that are not in the visible spectrum can of course be blocked without causing optical degradation through a port. This cannot be done for a visible laser for the simple reason that visible lasers are in the visual spectrum. To stop them you must block that bit of the visible spectrum. This, by definition degrades the optics.
Any goggles are exactly the same, and unless they block multiple frequencies will only protect against one laser frequency despite there being many out there.
Re the window coatings to protect against listening in.
B@llocks. Some energy will be reflected back, and that's all you need.
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Quote from PDR and I can't remember how to do quotes, can't be bothered to find out and am even less bothered to provide much by way of justification for my post. It happened.
I was lasered recently at 7000' near MAN
Can you provide any independent cites for this? I'm just baulking a little bit at the marksmanship required to target an aeroplane's cockpit windows from a range of several miles and would like some confirmation that it actually happens (and with what equipment).
No I can't. I just made it up because I was feeling left out.
I was lasered recently at 7000' near MAN
Can you provide any independent cites for this? I'm just baulking a little bit at the marksmanship required to target an aeroplane's cockpit windows from a range of several miles and would like some confirmation that it actually happens (and with what equipment).
No I can't. I just made it up because I was feeling left out.
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Just brainstorming here...
Maybe positioning a tethered balloon/blimp, with laser detection and precise locating ability, in areas of known attacks on aircraft would help in apprehending the perpetrators so they could be prosecuted.
I assume the military must already have such equipment.
Maybe positioning a tethered balloon/blimp, with laser detection and precise locating ability, in areas of known attacks on aircraft would help in apprehending the perpetrators so they could be prosecuted.
I assume the military must already have such equipment.
Last edited by wanabee777; 18th Feb 2016 at 13:40.
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Just read at Pope's plane reports laser flash during Mexico landing - BBC News that the Pope's plane has been l@sered just prior to landing at Mexico City.
Cheers!
Cheers!
returning to my Legoland speculation I too would be absolutely amazed if their displays were not very thoroughly checked and approved by CAA and possibly other agencies.
What does intrigue me is the , no doubt informed comment, that their lasers would not represent any threat to aircraft as they wouldnt reach that kind of height. Seeing as they put on quite spectacular display leads me to ask what on earth reason would an individual have ,or be able to obtain, something much more powerful and potentially dangerous than that used in a major entertainment complex where they no doubt have competent professional people operating their system
What does intrigue me is the , no doubt informed comment, that their lasers would not represent any threat to aircraft as they wouldnt reach that kind of height. Seeing as they put on quite spectacular display leads me to ask what on earth reason would an individual have ,or be able to obtain, something much more powerful and potentially dangerous than that used in a major entertainment complex where they no doubt have competent professional people operating their system
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Hull police get a result.
Hull man jailed for laser attack on police helicopter - BBC News
Hull man jailed for laser attack on police helicopter
Hull man jailed for laser attack on police helicopter - BBC News
Hull man jailed for laser attack on police helicopter
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A So called aviation expert has just Tarred all plane spotters as Nuts Pointing Lasers at Planes (Has he seen any one Doing this?)
"Aviation expert Julian Bray said so-called aircraft spotters would play "laser tagging" games, where they would try to shine a beam onto the fuselage of an aircraft."
I see some one Pointing a Laser at any Kind of flying machine 999 is my 1st response my 2nd
Virgin Atlantic flight back in UK after 'laser incident' - BBC News
"Aviation expert Julian Bray said so-called aircraft spotters would play "laser tagging" games, where they would try to shine a beam onto the fuselage of an aircraft."
I see some one Pointing a Laser at any Kind of flying machine 999 is my 1st response my 2nd
Virgin Atlantic flight back in UK after 'laser incident' - BBC News