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Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident

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Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident

Old 17th Feb 2016, 08:56
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you scroggs.
Above all, it's good to know there was no permanent injury.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 10:56
  #182 (permalink)  
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I'm also very glad to read that there's no permanent injury - and well handled Scroggs and your team, slightly dodgy but perfectly clear Pan call notwithstanding.

An article that appeared last night on The Conversation is somewhat relevant, but offers no particular hope of any quick fixes.

https://theconversation.com/thousand...ssengers-54863



One question from me, that I hope somebody might be able to answer. What's the investigative mechanism for an incident like this?. It clearly wasn't an accident, so presumably it's not AAIB's job. I know that CAA take a deep interest and publish statistics, and I'm sure the police are interested when there's anything for them to usefully go on. Doubtless Virgin and BALPA are also quite interested.

But what's the exact mechanism for investigating, then reporting, attacks on safety like this - if only so that I can bookmark the likely location of any future reports to read when they come out.

G
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 13:09
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Well done scroggs

It sounds well handled and you don't have to justify your actions, nobody with any real flying experience would have questioned it.

As for the R/T, I wouldn't worry, it may not have been textbook, but it was perfectly unambiguous.
We practice things over and over, getting them perfectly right, so that on the day we get them "right enough". Nobody could have been in any doubt hearing that call.

Glad to hear it's only temporary injury to the FO, hopefully he is fully recovered and back flying again soon.




I'm glad you are trying to make a difference while you still have some influence, hopefully it is enough for the powers that be to sit up and take note of what is probably one of the biggest external threats to aviation safety after drones.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 13:46
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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The way I understand these coatings is that they do work. But for only a specific light frequency and do create a reduction of tranceperancy. So as useful as a chocolate tea pot then.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 14:26
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Capt Scroggs

pardon my speculation about Legoland -it did seem to fit the bill well.

Very glad to hear that your colleague is and will be OK , I am sure he must have been very worried for a while given the importance of eyesight in your job.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 17:41
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the "safe" energy levels, does anyone know how what the assumptions of the pupil size are? If the "safe" estimates are based on a normal (day adaptation) pupil, wouldn't the resulting figure be an overestimate for a dilated (night adaptation) pupil?

According to wikipedia, a normal diameter of the entrance pupil is about 4mm, ranging from 2mm (bright) to 8mm (dark), so the underestimate might be with a factor between 4-16.
The HSE document HSg95 (The Radiation Safety of [email protected] Used For Display Purposes) has a section on calculating MPE levels. They recommend using a 7mm pupil diameter. This is due to most [email protected] shows taking place at night or inside darkened venues.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 17:46
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding Legoland, as an entertainment based organisation (and I suspect their operations are highly professional) I would expect them to be aware of the requirements for using [email protected] and searchlights outside and therefore notified the CAA with the relevant paperwork to obtain prior authorisation.

I have used high powered [email protected] argon [email protected] (up to 12 watts) and pulsed Copper Bromide [email protected] (8KW pep) outdoors and often close (under 2 miles laterally of extended runway centreline) to airports. At all times I had complied with CAA and ATC requirements and never had any issues. Although as a professional working in this field, we were far more aware of the consequences and repercussions if we got it wrong.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 17:59
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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The track at the beginning of this thread shows a easterly departure from LHR 9R and assuming a standard Compton departure the captains estimate of about 8 miles from Heathrow puts the plane just south of Lego land themepark situated in the middle of the crown estate at Windsor. That would fit perfectly with estimates that the [email protected] was 1-2 miles off to one side- ie to the north of track.
Sorry if i missed it but do we have now a firm confirmation that the aircraft was around 8000ft ? If so it must have a very powerful beam, something way beyond what could be laying around Legoland...
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 18:37
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry if i missed it but do we have now a firm confirmation that the aircraft was around 8000ft ? If so it must have a very powerful beam, something way beyond what could be laying around Legoland...
The link of Shannon ATC audio I posted on the first page of the thread seems to have gone dead.

Here's a new link to the LiveAtc.net audio, the report of the position of the [email protected] incident is at 2:00 into this nicely edited clip:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.....0;attach=8695

Sounds to me like he said they were on the LON 220 (or 230?) radial at 13 miles, 8000 feet, heading 275. But, I'm not so sure now with the foreign (to a hillbilly like me ) accents.

If Captain Scroggs is unable to comment on specifics at the present time I certainly understand.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 20:44
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Erm, not sure what you are talking about. No aircraft I have ever heard of had [email protected] protective coatings on the windows.
[email protected] are very effective against military aircraft which is one reason they are banned I believe. We certainly would never blind an enemy pilot of course. That would be unsportsmanlike.
Check the US attack helicopters, they use [email protected] for rangefinding and guidance.

I'm afraid you have been reading bad fiction.
You cannot stop an optical [email protected] without affecting vision through a port.
I am afraid you havent been reading at all. The US main battle tanks have a very powerful [email protected] rangefinder that goes to 5000m. I was on those tanks, and we tested them by burning holes in playing cards at 50m. For obvious reasons, the [email protected] is not in the visible spectrum. All weapons sights and vision blocks are protected. Look online and see the wide range of [email protected] safe glasses, it is just a coating on the glass, and many are clear.

[email protected] used to listen to conversations are bouncing off the window and the vibration of the window causes doppler shift which is detected. Coatings won't change that one iota.
Not true, look at the coatings of the windows at DMAAC. The coating is specifically for [email protected] listening devices. The coating has a radially diffuse pattern that scatters the [email protected], rather than allowing it to return. No return, no doppler shift.


Last edited by underfire; 17th Feb 2016 at 22:28.
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 23:12
  #191 (permalink)  
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Interesting question Genghis. I don't know the answer so I'll keep my two penneth brief. I suspect it will all kick off with a MOR, then all agencies with an interest will become involved, CAA, police, AAIB (accident prevention) and ATC for starters, plus Virgin.
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 00:09
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Question Uhh underfire ?

Not true, look at the coatings of the windows at DMAAC.
Suggestion - when one uses an acronym, especially out of range of the subject matter or blog participants- try spellIng it out at least the first time.


You probably meant the Defense Mapping agency aerospace center ??

And where do we find info on window coatings of that agency ?

This definition appears very rarely and is found in the following Acronym Finder categories:
  • Military and Government
  • Organizations, NGOs, schools, universities, etc.

Last edited by CONSO; 18th Feb 2016 at 01:01.
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 04:19
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Underfire.

I don't think you are really making sense.

[email protected] rangefinders that are not in the visible spectrum can of course be blocked without causing optical degradation through a port. This cannot be done for a visible [email protected] for the simple reason that visible [email protected] are in the visual spectrum. To stop them you must block that bit of the visible spectrum. This, by definition degrades the optics.
Any goggles are exactly the same, and unless they block multiple frequencies will only protect against one [email protected] frequency despite there being many out there.

Re the window coatings to protect against listening in.

[email protected] Some energy will be reflected back, and that's all you need.
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 11:18
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Quote from PDR and I can't remember how to do quotes, can't be bothered to find out and am even less bothered to provide much by way of justification for my post. It happened.

I was lasered recently at 7000' near MAN

Can you provide any independent cites for this? I'm just baulking a little bit at the marksmanship required to target an aeroplane's cockpit windows from a range of several miles and would like some confirmation that it actually happens (and with what equipment).


No I can't. I just made it up because I was feeling left out.
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 12:09
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Just brainstorming here...

Maybe positioning a tethered balloon/blimp, with laser detection and precise locating ability, in areas of known attacks on aircraft would help in apprehending the perpetrators so they could be prosecuted.

I assume the military must already have such equipment.

Last edited by wanabee777; 18th Feb 2016 at 14:40.
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 16:15
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Just read at Pope's plane reports [email protected] flash during Mexico landing - BBC News that the Pope's plane has been [email protected] just prior to landing at Mexico City.


Cheers!
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 17:06
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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returning to my Legoland speculation I too would be absolutely amazed if their displays were not very thoroughly checked and approved by CAA and possibly other agencies.

What does intrigue me is the , no doubt informed comment, that their [email protected] would not represent any threat to aircraft as they wouldnt reach that kind of height. Seeing as they put on quite spectacular display leads me to ask what on earth reason would an individual have ,or be able to obtain, something much more powerful and potentially dangerous than that used in a major entertainment complex where they no doubt have competent professional people operating their system
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 17:08
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Hull police get a result.

Hull man jailed for [email protected] attack on police helicopter - BBC News

Hull man jailed for [email protected] attack on police helicopter
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Old 18th Feb 2016, 17:10
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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I assume the military must already have such equipment.
They do, however, its normally attached to something.

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Old 18th Feb 2016, 17:34
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A So called aviation expert has just Tarred all plane spotters as Nuts Pointing [email protected] at Planes (Has he seen any one Doing this?)

"Aviation expert Julian Bray said so-called aircraft spotters would play "laser tagging" games, where they would try to shine a beam onto the fuselage of an aircraft."

I see some one Pointing a [email protected] at any Kind of flying machine 999 is my 1st response my 2nd

Virgin Atlantic flight back in UK after 'laser incident' - BBC News
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