British Airways to cut workers' pay
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This figure of 24,000 managerial staff taking a pay cut is misleading as the figure includes a significant number of what were the Admin grades (called A scales, mostly A7's and yes I was one) who changed contracts to APPG (admin performance pay grade, but don't quote me) over the last several years, who are (for the purposes of pay) included in the MG bargaining unit, in that the get a cost of living increase and and a salary uplift, not as such a basic pay rise. These people have been told they they will have a 5% paycut imposed on them on 1st November. Also the figures for managers salaries are misleading in that it all depends where you start and which managers you look at. A new manager who comes through the 'graduate program' can start on as little as £18,000 a year, but if the company recruits a manager from outside the company the going rate may be £50,000 depending on experience and the job role etc. A friend of mine was a manager in the 'e' area of BA an his salary was around £35,000 a year. My point is that you're all right, but it depends what you're looking at. If you look at job sites on the web and look in most industries, the salaries offered vary greatly and depend on knowledge and experience. What BA needs is less 'warm roll' type managers who don't have staff reporting to them and therefore cannot (or at least should not) be able to justify a management grade and salary as these people add little if any value to the company.
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No-one really enjoys the prospect of pay cuts, but what many of the postings suggest is that if these measures are neccessary then they must be done fairly.
I belive that someone in the Leadership team had this great idea that whilst preserving cash, could be presented to the unions in the format that after removing the issue of holiday pay bonus, actually ment that no-one found themselves with less money because they were currently not earning the incremented amount. win win yeah ... I think not...............
Whether it was realised that this idea would save millions every year from now on I do not know, but unless we jump two points after the proposed freeze many employees will be seriously worse off in terms of how much this costs to them over time.
I belive that the only way that paycuts can be imposed fairly is with a blanket percentage rate applied to everybodies basic salary for a specific period of time, or until a specific criteria is met.
My views have received attention by BALPA and thank you kindly for those who have also promulgated the problem with the current idea.
For those you think life is easy in BA, well it may be better than some airlines but it is hard work too. I am personnally in real danger of violating 90h in 28 days and that will also include about 60 sectors!!!
Also we should be thinking about our profession as a whole. Do we really want to take it to the lowest level or should those gritting it out with the toughest conditions and lowest pay be demanding and fighting for improvements?
Safe Flying
I belive that someone in the Leadership team had this great idea that whilst preserving cash, could be presented to the unions in the format that after removing the issue of holiday pay bonus, actually ment that no-one found themselves with less money because they were currently not earning the incremented amount. win win yeah ... I think not...............
Whether it was realised that this idea would save millions every year from now on I do not know, but unless we jump two points after the proposed freeze many employees will be seriously worse off in terms of how much this costs to them over time.
I belive that the only way that paycuts can be imposed fairly is with a blanket percentage rate applied to everybodies basic salary for a specific period of time, or until a specific criteria is met.
My views have received attention by BALPA and thank you kindly for those who have also promulgated the problem with the current idea.
For those you think life is easy in BA, well it may be better than some airlines but it is hard work too. I am personnally in real danger of violating 90h in 28 days and that will also include about 60 sectors!!!
Also we should be thinking about our profession as a whole. Do we really want to take it to the lowest level or should those gritting it out with the toughest conditions and lowest pay be demanding and fighting for improvements?
Safe Flying
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My father flew for a major carrier in Europe and for as far as I can remember I wanted to be just like him.
Reasons:
He enjoyed his job tremendously.
He had lots of time off.
He made big bucks.
Numerous other reasons.
I also remember him telling me there are always those who will criticize your salary.
They are always the ones who make less than you and the ones who have no clue what it takes to become a pilot for a major airline.
Well, I’m a wide body Captain now for a major US airline and enjoy it for the same reasons mentioned above.
For those of you who would like to attack my pay situation, pick up an application form and mail it to your own national airline. See what happens.
To my colleagues at BA, this too will pass and your airline will recover. I hope to read about your 20% pay raise in the paper by that time.
Okay, I have to take my BMW 740il to the carwash now.
Fly safe.
Reasons:
He enjoyed his job tremendously. He had lots of time off. He made big bucks. Numerous other reasons.I also remember him telling me there are always those who will criticize your salary.
They are always the ones who make less than you and the ones who have no clue what it takes to become a pilot for a major airline.
Well, I’m a wide body Captain now for a major US airline and enjoy it for the same reasons mentioned above.
For those of you who would like to attack my pay situation, pick up an application form and mail it to your own national airline. See what happens.
To my colleagues at BA, this too will pass and your airline will recover. I hope to read about your 20% pay raise in the paper by that time.
Okay, I have to take my BMW 740il to the carwash now.
Fly safe.
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I am amazed that nobody has taken issue with my last post!(They usually do!) Obviously I spoke the truth. Believe me, EVERYBODY (with the exception of maintenance engineers) at BA are on a very lucrative gravy train with respect to the ammount of work that they actually do...My father, who was a BA flight engineer for 30 years will readily admit this! The industry has changed vastly over the last ten years and BA's problem is that it has too much history/trade union agreements holding it back. I reiterate, management in general, current SENIOR flightcrew (the biggest bunch of bloodsuckers I've ever known), I.T personnel (the second biggest bunch of bloodsuckers) and SENIOR cabin crew (the third biggest group of bloodsuckers) are screwing what could be (and indeed used to be!) the best airline in the world by far.
About time BA got its sense of values and priorities right. I was, for several years, a maintenance engineer at BA (now flying as F/E elsewhere-thank god!), was licenced , and authorized on 747's. I worked nightshift (less staff, but same clearance expected)and including London weighting I earned £27k pa gross!!! Why oh why do BA flightcrew et al, always come out with the I'm underpaid chestnut??? If you are so unhappy then LEAVE!! I did, and have not looked back. Many have either never known, or have forgotten the "real" world outside.
About time BA got its sense of values and priorities right. I was, for several years, a maintenance engineer at BA (now flying as F/E elsewhere-thank god!), was licenced , and authorized on 747's. I worked nightshift (less staff, but same clearance expected)and including London weighting I earned £27k pa gross!!! Why oh why do BA flightcrew et al, always come out with the I'm underpaid chestnut??? If you are so unhappy then LEAVE!! I did, and have not looked back. Many have either never known, or have forgotten the "real" world outside.
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This pay thing is madness!!! There was an earlier post from an engineer being defensive about a 25k salary.
Can I suggest that 25k in the south of England is *not* an extravagant sum, and furthermore I would contend that with house prices at 200k+, rent of £1000pcm, petrol at 80p/lit, fags nearly £5 a packet etc, etc 25k is barely a living wage.
You pay peanuts and you know what you end up with - I don't want monkeys maintaining our aircraft.
PAY THEM MORE!!
Can I suggest that 25k in the south of England is *not* an extravagant sum, and furthermore I would contend that with house prices at 200k+, rent of £1000pcm, petrol at 80p/lit, fags nearly £5 a packet etc, etc 25k is barely a living wage.
You pay peanuts and you know what you end up with - I don't want monkeys maintaining our aircraft.
PAY THEM MORE!!
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Corner Speed, WELL said mate...
A lot of wannabes who've ended up doing a desk job for a living - haven't got the faintest idea what it takes to make it into the flight deck. Desk pilot and guvvy boy take note here......
A lot of wannabes who've ended up doing a desk job for a living - haven't got the faintest idea what it takes to make it into the flight deck. Desk pilot and guvvy boy take note here......
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Christmas bonus my a***.
Some years ago BA paid their staff every 28 days. Some bright accountant saw a cost saving in paying staff by the callender month. This was an implemented and it was agreed that the additional days were paid in November. Not as a bonus but as payment for work already done.
This is not a cozy bonus but hard earned money.
Some years ago BA paid their staff every 28 days. Some bright accountant saw a cost saving in paying staff by the callender month. This was an implemented and it was agreed that the additional days were paid in November. Not as a bonus but as payment for work already done.
This is not a cozy bonus but hard earned money.
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Chatham - not so.
The Christmas Bonus originated as "holiday pay" and was paid in the middle of the summer. Some years later it was agreed between the management and the unions that it would be better paid close to Christmas which is when most peoples outgoings peak.
The Christmas Bonus originated as "holiday pay" and was paid in the middle of the summer. Some years later it was agreed between the management and the unions that it would be better paid close to Christmas which is when most peoples outgoings peak.
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Chatham, I heard that urban myth too. In the old days there were people paid a weekly wage or on a salary, paid monthly in arrears. The bonus is not a missing amount as the monthly pay is simply your quoted annual salary divided by 12. Good story though, the cc fall for it.
Rod
Rod
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OK Basil, I'll flatter your ego with a reply. Firstly, I really don't think you should rely on your fathers nostalgia towards his 'easy' 30 year career as a BA F/E. Precisely how many of those years where when BA was a state-owned company? Secondly you claimed to earn £27K gross 'several'years ago. Was that before the south-east property boom? Whats that £27K worth in todays money? Not a bad salary for those days, about equal to the lowest pay scale of the 'blood sucking' CSDs you despise.
As for EVERYBODY being on a lucrative gravy train, I suggest you read some of the other posts on this thread from people who are reaching the legal flight duty limitations. I don't think working to the legal maximum could be described as an easy ride, and many of these people are on salaries lower than they could earn at EasyJet or Ryanair. The reason they don't leave is because they value what is still an excellent pension scheme, roster stability and ,until recently, job security. Despite your distorted view of BA staff, for most people money is NOT everything. You've been outside of BA for a very long time, don't use you're bitter memories of 'the bad old days' to tarnish the reputation of todays staff.
Harry Erman - the vast majority of luxury cars I see in our car parks are driven by the cabin crew. (and usually funded by their divorce settlements before anyone jumps down my throat!!)
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]
As for EVERYBODY being on a lucrative gravy train, I suggest you read some of the other posts on this thread from people who are reaching the legal flight duty limitations. I don't think working to the legal maximum could be described as an easy ride, and many of these people are on salaries lower than they could earn at EasyJet or Ryanair. The reason they don't leave is because they value what is still an excellent pension scheme, roster stability and ,until recently, job security. Despite your distorted view of BA staff, for most people money is NOT everything. You've been outside of BA for a very long time, don't use you're bitter memories of 'the bad old days' to tarnish the reputation of todays staff.
Harry Erman - the vast majority of luxury cars I see in our car parks are driven by the cabin crew. (and usually funded by their divorce settlements before anyone jumps down my throat!!)
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]
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chatham
I have to agree with you the so called bonus is for work done. Although it is correct that if you divide your annual salary by 12 that is what you get per month, we are actually paid for 371/2 hrs per week you will find that for the 7days extra you work for the 7 months that have 31 days in it minus feb with either 28/29 days that will equate to the amount that was originally given as a summer bonus.Work it by the hours and not the months and you will find that you are only paid for a 30 day month. This is normal practice with such large firms and enables the company to reap the interest. The unions negotiated this then to be paid at xmas for convenience.
I have to agree with you the so called bonus is for work done. Although it is correct that if you divide your annual salary by 12 that is what you get per month, we are actually paid for 371/2 hrs per week you will find that for the 7days extra you work for the 7 months that have 31 days in it minus feb with either 28/29 days that will equate to the amount that was originally given as a summer bonus.Work it by the hours and not the months and you will find that you are only paid for a 30 day month. This is normal practice with such large firms and enables the company to reap the interest. The unions negotiated this then to be paid at xmas for convenience.
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No sorry ryyham method, CSDs are overpaid and a wast of space- look at No1's in other airlines, they do not just carry out their service more proffesionally but they also know somthing about SEP, standards & leadership. There is a lot to be looked at cost wise before you start attacking your F/O's , most of whome could not raise a mortgage of that given to a longhaul steward / ess.
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It doesn't really matter whether your managers are really Chiefs or just Indians with the wrong name - there are still too many of them at BA. Since Rod took over, the numbers have in fact INCREASED despite BA's capacity reduction programme. So why does it need more "managers" to oversee an airline that is running fewer sectors?
Porkypig - why should anyone have a company car? The captains who are "aeroplane" managers, some looking after 350 people for 14 hours a day, don't get one. Neither do the deputy aeroplane managers (FO's).
I work for BAE Systems - when we ran into trouble financially, the company laid off revenue earners and employed more admin staff. Sound familiar? The upshot was that our business unit closed and relocated to somewhere that the admin staff could be emplyed on lower wages and still have an equivalent (or better) disposable income. We now have a susatinable cost base that will allow us to ride the coming recession - with NO job losses!
For info: we are the flight training division, fomerly based in Prestwick, now based in spain, that was responsible for training (and still trains) a very large percentage of your pilots who have less than 15 years service to their names.
So here is a thought: Close Waterside, etc. Move BA HQ to Newcastle or Glasgow - damn good deals on property, cheaper living costs by at least 50% if you include the average mortgage, huge number of people looking for jobs anyway so you can save a packet on the pay, give people a good standard of living and selling all the real estate around Heathrow will provide a huge cash surplus to prop up or (heaven forbid!) REFORM some of the company structure.
LHR and LGW could then be outstations - and there is no reason why the pilots who live around there could not continue to do so as that is where a very large proportion of the work, thinking of long haul here, is to be found. The headquarters buildings are where the majority of your personnel are based - so moving this bit to a low cost area gives the potential to save a huge amount. The opprtunity could also be taken to slim down the staff numbers to something more in line with what the company is like NOW rather than WAS 2 years ago.
For heavens sake - something must be done. A change of course will be more effective than re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
Porkypig - why should anyone have a company car? The captains who are "aeroplane" managers, some looking after 350 people for 14 hours a day, don't get one. Neither do the deputy aeroplane managers (FO's).
I work for BAE Systems - when we ran into trouble financially, the company laid off revenue earners and employed more admin staff. Sound familiar? The upshot was that our business unit closed and relocated to somewhere that the admin staff could be emplyed on lower wages and still have an equivalent (or better) disposable income. We now have a susatinable cost base that will allow us to ride the coming recession - with NO job losses!
For info: we are the flight training division, fomerly based in Prestwick, now based in spain, that was responsible for training (and still trains) a very large percentage of your pilots who have less than 15 years service to their names.
So here is a thought: Close Waterside, etc. Move BA HQ to Newcastle or Glasgow - damn good deals on property, cheaper living costs by at least 50% if you include the average mortgage, huge number of people looking for jobs anyway so you can save a packet on the pay, give people a good standard of living and selling all the real estate around Heathrow will provide a huge cash surplus to prop up or (heaven forbid!) REFORM some of the company structure.
LHR and LGW could then be outstations - and there is no reason why the pilots who live around there could not continue to do so as that is where a very large proportion of the work, thinking of long haul here, is to be found. The headquarters buildings are where the majority of your personnel are based - so moving this bit to a low cost area gives the potential to save a huge amount. The opprtunity could also be taken to slim down the staff numbers to something more in line with what the company is like NOW rather than WAS 2 years ago.
For heavens sake - something must be done. A change of course will be more effective than re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
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Don't remember ever getting a contract.
If you can quote staff regs. etc then I suspect that you may have worked for BA for many years as something other than a Pilot.
Or is this a sudden, understandable interest?
Please don't quote, just tell us where to find same on intranet.
Cheers...........
If you can quote staff regs. etc then I suspect that you may have worked for BA for many years as something other than a Pilot.
Or is this a sudden, understandable interest?
Please don't quote, just tell us where to find same on intranet.
Cheers...........
