British Airways to cut workers' pay
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Under the latest proposal, every pilot who joined in the last 5 years will be "contributing" 15% or more to the recovery whilst the most senior ones zilch. Grossly unfair within the group of people who are *all* one of the most efficient and competitively paid group in Europe already.
Let it go bust and start with a clean slate?
Rod
Let it go bust and start with a clean slate?
Rod
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Warthog and others
Erm, I think you'll find that Sleazyjet and Ryanair pay their pilots considerably more on average than your 1-15 year pilot at BA. Sharp end salaries are not the problem. The problem is that BA is not a lean airline. They have baggage handlers, CSD's, dispatchers and tug drivers on 30-40 G's which is more than a lot of FO's. They need to subcontract these things out and... get rid of CSD's, there I've said it! You think WE don't justify our salaries???!!!!
What's more Ryanair, and possibly EasyJet (the former no question), have enjoyed a series of advantages hardly in keeping with fair competion rules.
These two airlines may get people flying for a month or two at £10 a go but they can't keep that up forever and as soon as they drop the initiative the loads will drop in unison.
You cannot run an airline without your own pilots but you can fly without CSD's (probably better in fact - and I'm not saying sack them, but get rid of the rank!), and the rest you can subcontract out.
Erm, I think you'll find that Sleazyjet and Ryanair pay their pilots considerably more on average than your 1-15 year pilot at BA. Sharp end salaries are not the problem. The problem is that BA is not a lean airline. They have baggage handlers, CSD's, dispatchers and tug drivers on 30-40 G's which is more than a lot of FO's. They need to subcontract these things out and... get rid of CSD's, there I've said it! You think WE don't justify our salaries???!!!!
What's more Ryanair, and possibly EasyJet (the former no question), have enjoyed a series of advantages hardly in keeping with fair competion rules.
These two airlines may get people flying for a month or two at £10 a go but they can't keep that up forever and as soon as they drop the initiative the loads will drop in unison.
You cannot run an airline without your own pilots but you can fly without CSD's (probably better in fact - and I'm not saying sack them, but get rid of the rank!), and the rest you can subcontract out.
Squirrel, what's your problem with CSD's?
Been refused an upgrade at some time or something?
Doing away with CSD's will not cure BA's long term ills. Management trimmed to half its' current level would most likely send the company back into the black to start with! Flog Waterworld and you've got the initial £37m and then onwards!. Why employ Feng Shui consultants, chocolate purchasers, Danish pastry temperature consultants (need I go on?). Jobs for the boys and girls to the extreme! Let's look at realistic cost-cutting and overhead slashing, but stop using these trying times to rob the staff working at the 'coal face'. I'm disgusted to think that Sept 11th is being used to justify these managerial w@nkers laying off harding working staff whose salaries will have minimal impact on removing the real overheads and problems of BA.
MANAGEMENT REDUCE ALL YOUR SALARIES TO THE CURRENT UK AVERAGE TO PROVE YOU WANT THE COMPANY TO SURVIVE. £20-30K LIKE 90% OF THE POPULATION. (OF COURSE YOU'VE ALREADY LINED YOUR NESTS SO MUCH THAT THERE'LL BE PLENTY OF EXCESS IF YOU FIND THE GOING TOUGH).
LETS SEE SOME REALISTIC COST CUTTING, NOT STAFF ABUSING!
Been refused an upgrade at some time or something?
Doing away with CSD's will not cure BA's long term ills. Management trimmed to half its' current level would most likely send the company back into the black to start with! Flog Waterworld and you've got the initial £37m and then onwards!. Why employ Feng Shui consultants, chocolate purchasers, Danish pastry temperature consultants (need I go on?). Jobs for the boys and girls to the extreme! Let's look at realistic cost-cutting and overhead slashing, but stop using these trying times to rob the staff working at the 'coal face'. I'm disgusted to think that Sept 11th is being used to justify these managerial w@nkers laying off harding working staff whose salaries will have minimal impact on removing the real overheads and problems of BA.
MANAGEMENT REDUCE ALL YOUR SALARIES TO THE CURRENT UK AVERAGE TO PROVE YOU WANT THE COMPANY TO SURVIVE. £20-30K LIKE 90% OF THE POPULATION. (OF COURSE YOU'VE ALREADY LINED YOUR NESTS SO MUCH THAT THERE'LL BE PLENTY OF EXCESS IF YOU FIND THE GOING TOUGH).
LETS SEE SOME REALISTIC COST CUTTING, NOT STAFF ABUSING!
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Nice to see that even the FT doesn't do its homework!
http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pag...id=ZZZHJ52NA0C
http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pag...id=ZZZHJ52NA0C
BA's 4,000 pilots are among the most highly paid of its employees. Salaries start at about £40,000 ($58,000) a year, with the average pay £80,000. The captain on a Boeing-747 can earn double that.
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'Squirrel, what's your problem with CSD's?
Been refused an upgrade at some time or something'
RM - I doubt that is his problem, he's just stating a truth but the politically incorrect.
Here is a fact. Ask a passenger when a flight departs with a purser acting as CSD if they noticed any differnce in the service - I doubt it. Don't get me wrong a number do a good job, but there are far too many who are trying to win their little turf battles and honestly believe they are more important than the Captain.
BA has such massive problems, it's mini-empires within the airline all concerned with their own patch and not managing the company as a successful venture. At the top of the heap is the Cabin Crew departments, unless they are sorted out in their working practices it's hard to see how the airline has a future - they really do bleed the company dry. Stil they are asking the pilots to slow down to get their extra payments. On a day return flight to TLV just after the attack, the flight being almost empty going out - they had extra money, hotel and 5 days off after the flight as an inducement - yet they still delayed it over an hour to wait for two crew even though they could have legally gone. This sort of thing is going on all the time, given the current circumstances you do have to question some peoples IQ!
Been refused an upgrade at some time or something'
RM - I doubt that is his problem, he's just stating a truth but the politically incorrect.
Here is a fact. Ask a passenger when a flight departs with a purser acting as CSD if they noticed any differnce in the service - I doubt it. Don't get me wrong a number do a good job, but there are far too many who are trying to win their little turf battles and honestly believe they are more important than the Captain.
BA has such massive problems, it's mini-empires within the airline all concerned with their own patch and not managing the company as a successful venture. At the top of the heap is the Cabin Crew departments, unless they are sorted out in their working practices it's hard to see how the airline has a future - they really do bleed the company dry. Stil they are asking the pilots to slow down to get their extra payments. On a day return flight to TLV just after the attack, the flight being almost empty going out - they had extra money, hotel and 5 days off after the flight as an inducement - yet they still delayed it over an hour to wait for two crew even though they could have legally gone. This sort of thing is going on all the time, given the current circumstances you do have to question some peoples IQ!
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Saw it all yesterday. A 737 pulls up at Glasow, large luxury car pulls up along side.Capt and F.O. get driven to airport hotel approx 500m away!!. How can they justify pay cuts and redundancies when this sort of stuff is still going on. I know BA crews think they have earned these perks over the years, but if they ar'nt carful the biggest perk of all will vanish soon.
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I do not work for BA but am very pro-them. I really want them to succeed and do well as it has a knock-on effect for all of us. I have just finished a conversion at Cranebank run by BA and it was superb - faultless. However, there was vast overmanning in the groundschool and several layers of management. The 'CSD problem' must be addressed. These people are simply earning too much money (like more than twice what they should do). I am sorry if that offends people but everyone knows its true. The pilots get too many perks and there are way, way too many managers. Before you all go berserk, remember these are relative terms. The question you have to ask yourself is what do everyone else pay their staff, and how many are there? By way of example my last company paid cabin crew £10,000 per year and paid the senior cabin crew £11,000 per year. They all flew 4 sector days, 5 or 6 days a week. The pilots were not much better off but were limited by CAA regulations. The simple fact is that other companies pay considerably less to their staff, have considerably less of them and work them considerably harder. That is the competition that you are up against. I hope the events with Swiss Air, Sabena, etc have removed any lingering doubt about the divine right to exist of national carriers. I truly wish you every success guys, but if you do not wake up very soon and take drastic action at every level then there will be no British Airways. Act now while you still can.
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Cabincrew pay is the biggest issue facing BA ask your self how at the end of the month when the total remunaration is counted can a first year cabin crew member get more in pay and alowances that a licenced aircraft engineer ,the skill to reward balance is just not correct and cannot be sustaned in this market place.
So the cabin crew empire must fall or BA will fall ,if that happens then it wont take long for the pilots and engineers to find a job in aviation but the cabin crew training will leave the average CSD well equiped to flip burgers under the golden arches.
So the cabin crew empire must fall or BA will fall ,if that happens then it wont take long for the pilots and engineers to find a job in aviation but the cabin crew training will leave the average CSD well equiped to flip burgers under the golden arches.
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Whether you like it or not someone has to be accountable and responsible to the Captain and the company for what happens in the cabin. Whether you call them a CSD or a steward, who cares. Let me tell you though when you get involved and really care about BA, being a CSD is not always as easy as some of you seem to think. By the way, Last year neither of us went into the 40% tax bracket, we are not earning the kind of money, that some of you believe we earn.We are both on longhaul.
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"Saw it all yesterday. A 737 pulls up at Glasow, large luxury car pulls up along side.Capt and F.O. get driven to airport hotel approx 500m away!!. How can they justify pay cuts and redundancies when this sort of stuff is still going on. I know BA crews think they have earned these perks over the years, but if they ar'nt carful the biggest perk of all will vanish soon."
This is is not an expensive practice (eg. £30). It is cheaper than extending the pilot's duty day. (ie. 2 pilots @ £50 for 1/2 an hour). The cabin crew are deemed to require longer to finish their duties!! - and take seperate transport; often to a hotel of different(lower) spec.
Don't make statements you don't understand
This is is not an expensive practice (eg. £30). It is cheaper than extending the pilot's duty day. (ie. 2 pilots @ £50 for 1/2 an hour). The cabin crew are deemed to require longer to finish their duties!! - and take seperate transport; often to a hotel of different(lower) spec.
Don't make statements you don't understand
Usual disclaimers apply!
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Before you go blaming the cc!
BA manpower numbers and employee costs
AREA..................NUMBERS...........COSTS
Head office............5%...............7%
Cargo..................5%...............5%
Sales and marketing...12%..............11%
IM.....................4%...............4%
Engineering...........15%..............13%
Airports..............24%..............17%
Cabin Services........28%..............25%
Flight Operations......7%..............18%
For the engineering group there are 7126 employees worldwide.
Approx 12 months ago at a briefing we were told that the number of 'direct' staff would reduce and the number of 'indirect' staff would increase, these indirect staff are all in the 'Technical Manager grade' (with the associated benefits). Just wander in any tech control and see the managers!!
More 'planners' than you can shake a stick at. Most of which are absolutely useless and haven't got a clue.Shift managers that do er...ummm...er.. arhhh! yes! Email.
I dare say other groups are run on similar lines.
BA was at it's best just before privatisation and for the first 5? years, then the staff numbers just began to bloat after wasting millions on consultants and failed BPR and BEP projects.
Rant Over
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: gas path ]
BA manpower numbers and employee costs
AREA..................NUMBERS...........COSTS
Head office............5%...............7%
Cargo..................5%...............5%
Sales and marketing...12%..............11%
IM.....................4%...............4%
Engineering...........15%..............13%
Airports..............24%..............17%
Cabin Services........28%..............25%
Flight Operations......7%..............18%
For the engineering group there are 7126 employees worldwide.
Approx 12 months ago at a briefing we were told that the number of 'direct' staff would reduce and the number of 'indirect' staff would increase, these indirect staff are all in the 'Technical Manager grade' (with the associated benefits). Just wander in any tech control and see the managers!!
More 'planners' than you can shake a stick at. Most of which are absolutely useless and haven't got a clue.Shift managers that do er...ummm...er.. arhhh! yes! Email.
I dare say other groups are run on similar lines.
BA was at it's best just before privatisation and for the first 5? years, then the staff numbers just began to bloat after wasting millions on consultants and failed BPR and BEP projects.
Rant Over
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: gas path ]
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Been flying for BA Main line for FOR A WHILE. Now flying(SH)out for BAR. Started on £18,000 have now reached about £36,000. Sat & thought about it and after hearing fellow pilots discussing the issue am totally opposed to the withdrawal of incremental pay for following reasons:
BALPA have shown that we work harder and earn less then some other airlines
We have more ground staff etc then other airlines we should address this.
Please remember back to 1995 when BA had some good profits, but did not increase pay by much as this would create a high staff cost base, this would be a problem during a down turn!! Please see BA news.
Flight crew will be targeted unevenly, for those on pay point 24 no affect!!!!!
Forever one pay point behind in turn affecting pensions (mine).
And if we give in on this it allows BA to come along next month etc and say its going to be a tough time ahead so we need even further cuts as things still look bad. It has been done before it will be done again.
edited due to grammatical errors and tiredness
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Thankyoukindly ]
BALPA have shown that we work harder and earn less then some other airlines
We have more ground staff etc then other airlines we should address this.
Please remember back to 1995 when BA had some good profits, but did not increase pay by much as this would create a high staff cost base, this would be a problem during a down turn!! Please see BA news.
Flight crew will be targeted unevenly, for those on pay point 24 no affect!!!!!
Forever one pay point behind in turn affecting pensions (mine).
And if we give in on this it allows BA to come along next month etc and say its going to be a tough time ahead so we need even further cuts as things still look bad. It has been done before it will be done again.
edited due to grammatical errors and tiredness
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Thankyoukindly ]
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Something I wonder, how cab BA justify all these expensive workshops, at a time where the lean low-cost carriers prosper and seem to threten the very existence of 'the all service' carriers like BA.
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Inspector Gadget if your going to post please try and not make up stories. All BA crew nightstopping at GLA stay in the centre of Glasgow.
Please do tell how YOU know they were driven to the airport hotel, were you sad enough to follow them?
Seeing that you are so badly informed, at almost every slip station (MAN excluded)the transport is subcontracted, in GLA I belive it to be a company called SIGNET. Thus they are paid a fixed fee for which they will have tendered to run their opperation, BA pay no more or less for the size and or distances/frequency of their operation.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: CRP5 ]
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]
Please do tell how YOU know they were driven to the airport hotel, were you sad enough to follow them?
Seeing that you are so badly informed, at almost every slip station (MAN excluded)the transport is subcontracted, in GLA I belive it to be a company called SIGNET. Thus they are paid a fixed fee for which they will have tendered to run their opperation, BA pay no more or less for the size and or distances/frequency of their operation.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: CRP5 ]
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]
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A&C , For someone in the know , Cabin crew were starting on 7,800 for the last 4 years , until this year when it changed to 9,100.
All new entrants come to Eurofleet, where their allowances approx 500-600/ month on a an average 45hrs+ a week.
So if on £12-14k a year (minus their downroute expenses)they are still earning more than engineers I find that hard to believe.
They also have to be over 20,i guess some apprentice engineers are younger than this.
The CSD role is diminishing,certainly on Shorthaul.
I wouldn't be surprised in the next 3-4 years to see purely a A320/319/321 mix, with only a purser needed in charge.
All new entrants come to Eurofleet, where their allowances approx 500-600/ month on a an average 45hrs+ a week.
So if on £12-14k a year (minus their downroute expenses)they are still earning more than engineers I find that hard to believe.
They also have to be over 20,i guess some apprentice engineers are younger than this.
The CSD role is diminishing,certainly on Shorthaul.
I wouldn't be surprised in the next 3-4 years to see purely a A320/319/321 mix, with only a purser needed in charge.
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I was at BA for several years as an engineer before leaving to pursue my dream of flying for a living. So, I have therefore seen it from the inside and outside. Firstly, there are far,far too many managers. Half of them could disappear overnight and nobody would notice any difference whatsoever.(Memories of opening the internal telephone directory at random and seeing such positions as "Manager-job titles"!!!) There was a saying that the key to promotion was walking purposefully around the hangar clutching some important looking paperwork!! Secondly, the SENIOR cabin crew are on a very cushy number, have been for many years. They will argue otherwise, but then they would, wouldn't they?? Thirdly, The IT people are simply taking the p*ss. But then, on reflection, they do everywhere, so thats not a problem purely at BA!!
The company will survive purely because it has a LOT of good routes, valuable slots, and a good (historical) public image. However the company will not thrive in this new age until it stops being "ripped off" by its own employees. Here I am talking about middle management, SENIOR flightcrew (yes people, you've been living in Disneyland compared with the rest of us outside and you know it too!) and SENIOR cabin crew.
The company will survive purely because it has a LOT of good routes, valuable slots, and a good (historical) public image. However the company will not thrive in this new age until it stops being "ripped off" by its own employees. Here I am talking about middle management, SENIOR flightcrew (yes people, you've been living in Disneyland compared with the rest of us outside and you know it too!) and SENIOR cabin crew.
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The christmas bonus B.A. want to take away from the WORKERS is a payment that the WORKERS have earned during the year and I cannot see how they can take this from us unless they defer it.
If it is broken I will fix it!
If it is broken I will fix it!