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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:13
  #1721 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Firesysok

You fools need to remember that you cannot and will never have regular every-day pilots screened to this level. Your precious low, low ticket prices reflect this. If you want astronauts then be prepared to pay as if you were going to the moon or further.

Nor will the airlines install biometric command-and-control iPads in the loo ceiling, replete with fingerprint and retinal scans that need authentication by each stewardess before the pilot comes out to drop a deuce.
If this comment represents the new breed of Professional Pilots, we are in bad shape.

There are plenty of us that got into aviation because we love flight. Being granted a pilot certificate, whether private or ATP with a bunch of types on the back, is a great privilege.

If more money is required to keep psychologically stable folks in the cockpit, I ask how much money? And are wealthier pilots more psychologically stable or motivated?

There isn't one solution. You need pilot screening at hire time, recurring screening as part of the medical process, keeping 2+ people in the cabin at all times, and possibly a big fire axe. Many of these are already in place.

As for paying for astronauts, I submit that many astronauts earn far less than many professional pilots flying set routes. Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong didn't earn much as test pilots. Were they poor pilots?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:17
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Rapid Eye Movement (REM) deep sleep dream state

People fall asleep at the wheel of cars quite often. I think one can go quickly from drowsey to sleep, which may be the deep REM type. I think external stimuli during REM state can be incorporated into the dream rather than causing a wake up. (Knocking on door, loud voices, etc.)


Post by Dingo 63--
"Having Squitter data showing manual input clearly is not, in my opinion, definitive as to state of mind or intent of the F/O. We can deduce, but my question would be, why in the world did the F/O manually input 100, and stay on FP ? I would like a mental health professional to show me the percentage of folks so minded, that would take deliberate action and make no attempt to expedite it, ie, roll it over, nor take advantage of the CVR to explain to his actions to loved ones or those he might have been aggrieved at.

Doesn't add up. And to sit there listening to the pilot banging on the door to get in... human nature is not to just sit there and "know" entry would not be gained in time... and yet he did apparently nothing to expedite departure from controlled flight. Doesn't add up. There is more to this.... just has to be. I don't like speculating and I hate that the media has "solved" it because of the French guy preliminary statement."


edit: This was written before seeing the 3 related posts just above.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:22
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To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT chea
As someone who has installed cameras inside building demolitions, inside airframes that were tested and cameras in fire research establishments as well as commissioning and wrangling minor mods I think you are understating the utility of a camera when recording the leadup and events of an accident.

The camera doesnt have to survive the crash, just the compact flash (size of postage stamp) solid state recoding media, which can be enclosed in layered compositite material.
Redundency x4 can suppliment the existing single unit.
Spread the recorders into the parts of the airframe that survive. If landing gear survives stick one in there.
Chaos offers opportunities for survival, maximise the opportunities with multiple units.
24hrs of data can be recorded on a CF card. Measures to make it easier to find can be developed.
I suggest that the recording media of one or two on board phones on this flight, although unprotected could have survived.
For example, the solid state memory in an unprotected camera survived the space shuttle breakup and was found despite the massive size of the debris field.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:23
  #1724 (permalink)  
 
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Why have at least two pilots gone mad?

One of the symptoms of hypoxia is euphoria, another is belligerence. If what we have been told to believe is true, we have had two or more airbus pilots go mental within a year. That is pretty odd.

Take this incident a little further back. Why did the captain leave the cockpit? Was it a normal biology break or was he feeling sick? An older person will feel the effects of hypoxia much earlier than a younger one. In this era of personal responsiblity we tend to discount the effects of external agents on our thoughts and behaviors but such things are quite powerful.

I had an involuntary experience with an unknown drug once and one of the effects was that it made me think it would be screamingly funny to drive at high speeds down the wrong side of the road. I had a tiny sliver of rationality left and it got me home safely where I proceeded to stand on my head for awhile.

Is the air supply to the cockpit the same as that to the rest of the aircraft?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:24
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MI185 in 1997 proved a clinically depressed cockpit crew member on duty is extremely risky (NTSB investigation). Fortunately this is an extremely rare event; but as this recent occurence has shown it can still happen if proper safeguards are not enforced.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:26
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A page of resources and information for crew.

https://www.facebook.com/anxdep
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:34
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A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon.
Wouldn't this have been possible even if the armed door had been a curtain?

We know that one thing the French prosecutor said cannot be true:

He said the passengers wouldn't have been aware what was happening until the last few moments.

But we also know the captain was trying to knock down the door. Many of the passengers must have been aware of this.
The descent lasted 8 minutes, but do we know when the captain first tried to enter the cockpit? The situation could've escalated quickly from knocking via banging to ramming and end of recording.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 03:46
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MI185 in 1997 proved a clinically depressed cockpit crew member on duty is extremely risky (NTSB investigation). Fortunately this is an extremely rare event; but as this recent occurence has shown it can still happen if proper safeguards are not enforced.
Statistics on the incidence of depression suggest that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cockpit crew with clinical depression who fly every day. The idea that this is "extremely risky" is not supported by the evidence.

What would make flying safer would be if those hundreds, or thousands, of depressed cockpit crew could safely seek treatment for their illness.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:14
  #1729 (permalink)  
 
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Cockpit alone time

With such low hours I am wondering if this flight was the first time he had been left alone in the cockpit. All short haul and so not many rest breaks in the air. Some would have had check/training capt in the jump.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:18
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GermanWings' lawyers must be themselves by now.

This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline.

It's not fair, because clearly this chaps actions were quite unprecedented at least in European aviation.
The lawyers are going to ask what GermanWings training department was thinking about though, when they put this guy in the RHS knowing that he'd been off work for months with depression.

That's going to be hard to answer.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:22
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Air NZ annouces new policy

Alps crash: Air NZ rushes in cockpit 'rule of two' - National - NZ Herald News

Captain David Morgan, Air NZ's chief flight operations and safety officer, said today the policy amendment meant at least two crew members were now required to be present at all times on each aircraft's flight deck.

If one of two pilots operating a flight needed to leave the cockpit for a short time, another crew member would be required to be on the flight deck during the other's absence.


The policy change was "effective immediately", Captain Morgan said, and followed a review of flight deck procedures in response to the European air disaster.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:24
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I'm sure they're in full-out CYA mode right now. My guess is that they'll try to scapegoat the shrinks who cleared him to fly.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:26
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This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline

I was pondering this myself earlier today. That and the idea that this was the first/best opportunity this F/O had. What are the odds.

As I reflect on today and the revelations that have been announced so far.. I am deeply saddened for all of you line pilots and all of us that hold aviation so dear. (29 years, retired ARTCC ATC ) Incomprehensible.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:39
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Okay people, here is a question. Would everybody who has posted on this thread already, following the very sad & tragic loss of the A320, care to repost & list their qualifications as to make comments? I appreciate of course, that many who have posted here, are directly involved in Aviation, be it Flight Deck or others & I of course accept & understand your comments, also your reasons for making them known. However it might be interesting to know, just how many of us here have a degree & are experts in psychoogy & matters of the mind & are thus able to explain just what state the First Officer was in & just what he was thinking at the time the aircraft was lost.
A tragic & very sad time of course for a all those concerned, but let's make sure we have all the facts to hand before taking to our key boards, surely there is much more information & data still to surface yet.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:52
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GermanWings' lawyers must be themselves by now.

This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline.

It's not fair, because clearly this chaps actions were quite unprecedented at least in European aviation.
The lawyers are going to ask what GermanWings training department was thinking about though, when they put this guy in the RHS knowing that he'd been off work for months with depression.
And what if that was a single episode of acute depression, resulting from something like a child (his, or a young sibling) dying under terrible circumstances? or some other similar "normal" cause for deep depression?

There is no straight line between chronic depression and suicide. Rather the contrary. There are millions of people walking around with chronic depression, some of them untreated, who never even consider suicide. Meanwhile perfectly non-depressed first responders may commit suicide after dealing with some major traumatic event, like a massacre or fatal train smash etc. and disaster survivors may kill themselves from "survivor guilt".
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:55
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Question Suggestion to reduce the speculations

Why not make a short summary and simply repost it from time to time since many do not bother to read the whole xxx posts?

Sort of like this- but by someone more qualified than this oldie

1) Copilot deliberately flew plane into CFIT by dialing in 100 foot altitude into computer and ? reducing thrust. Plane automatically flew into mountain.

2) Copilot deliberately locked pilot out by more than one action, not accidental ,pushing lock switch more than once

3) Copilot breathing sounded normal until end

4) Pilot tried to open door, tried to communicate with copilot, was unsuccessful.

5) Questions as to WHY copilot did this remain.

6) Absent FDR, no mechanical or structural failures are apparent.

7) All else is uninformed speculation



8 ) passengers were unaware until very last seconds.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 04:58
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Rudolf, post 1729:

In three and a half lines, you've encapsulated the implied integrity that should always be at the core of the profession.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:03
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There are millions of people walking around with chronic depression, some of them untreated, who never even consider suicide.
Excellent point. I've always thought that the biggest risk of flying with chronic depression would be getting sloppy with the procedures.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:04
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More on language

Mr. Spohr made a statement in German (I think) which has been translated in the English media as:

“This is the worst possible time, the worst possible moment, the darkest chapter in the history in our airline,” Spohr said. “And yet we have full confidence in our pilots, so this is totally incomprehensible.”

That sounds kind of dumb, like he cares more about his company than the victims. Maybe it's a correct literal translation, but I somehow think his meaning is not accurately expressed.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:07
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. That sounds kind of dumb, like he cares more about his company than the victims
Your own interpretation, I don't see it that way.
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