Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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It's been 2 days, part of a CVR recording has been leaked, and the FDR has not even been recovered yet.
No one is categorically saying he didnt do it intentionally, we are saying lets recover all the facts and data first before we condem this individual and implement ill thoughtout procedures based on rash & misinformed judgement
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Interesting to read the suggestions about locks and doors and procedures to stop one pilot from crashing the plane while the other's using the facilities.
Wouldn't it make more sense to accept that most pilots are fairly stable folk and aren't going to kill themselves and a hundred or more innocent people?
Wouldn't it make more sense to accept that most pilots are fairly stable folk and aren't going to kill themselves and a hundred or more innocent people?
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@Beagles.
Not very useful when you are alone on the flight deck and your colleague who was outside, is being held by a terrorist demanding access.
How are you going to stop him coming in now ?
Not very useful when you are alone on the flight deck and your colleague who was outside, is being held by a terrorist demanding access.
How are you going to stop him coming in now ?
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"Just another unexplained passenger plane crashing, on top of the 3 last year."
With all due respect, this is WRONG.
One of the so called "unexplained" incidents in 2014 was explained within seconds as the fields were full of kids toys and civvy jetsam.
The fact the people responsible for the murders lied + denied all, makes no difference to the train of responsibilities.
Here so we have some "hero" who wanted to get famous taking everyone out, (?)...
compared with proper pilots like Sullenberger, Lamanov/Noselov or Rodionov who try successfully to keep everyone alive.
With all due respect, this is WRONG.
One of the so called "unexplained" incidents in 2014 was explained within seconds as the fields were full of kids toys and civvy jetsam.
The fact the people responsible for the murders lied + denied all, makes no difference to the train of responsibilities.
Here so we have some "hero" who wanted to get famous taking everyone out, (?)...
compared with proper pilots like Sullenberger, Lamanov/Noselov or Rodionov who try successfully to keep everyone alive.
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jumping the gun
Much as can be lamented about this tragedy and its shocking value I opt to stand by our colleague at the risk of being labelled a heretic....until we have ALL the factors exhaustively analysed...starting with the FDR.
GERMAN WINGS comprehends the detrimental commercial effects of not being in a position to account for an Air Disaster, as was learnt from unfotunate the MH.This apparent copilot suicidal theory might be a convenient scape goat (or not...)...one thing just does not add up..."the copilot's breathing was NORMAL till the end"...and that "he was 100% fit for duty" and yet storues are leaking of unwellness during training that had his duty suspended for 6 months...head scratching points?
GERMAN WINGS comprehends the detrimental commercial effects of not being in a position to account for an Air Disaster, as was learnt from unfotunate the MH.This apparent copilot suicidal theory might be a convenient scape goat (or not...)...one thing just does not add up..."the copilot's breathing was NORMAL till the end"...and that "he was 100% fit for duty" and yet storues are leaking of unwellness during training that had his duty suspended for 6 months...head scratching points?
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For several decades I ran a high tech company in California where the turnover of employees in there 20's and early 30's was high. On several occasions I got a call from the FBI, Los Angeles PD and LA county sheriff dept. wanting to stop by and chat about former employees who had moved on and were now applying for positions with the above law enforcement agencies. What was interesting was some of the folk they wanted to get a feel for had left my company several years earlier and had had a few jobs since but the HR dept at the cops still sent someone round to chat about what type of people they were. When i told the cop during the meeting that the person in question was a hard worker with good attendance etc. they waived that off and focused in on my impression of the candidates social skills and asked questions like "did they have ever hang out with other staff after work? i.e. go drinking or bowling or socializing etc. I realized they were looking beyond your usual HR shit and trying to get a read on their human skills and interaction. Maybe the airlines should look at this?
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German news reporting that Lubitz had undergone treatment for depression for 18 months.......also speculation that he had big problems in his relationship with his girlfriend, which if true, will put her under the microscope too - poor girl.
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Just an observation (as others have previously said).
In all of these accidents we are seeing the blame placed squarely on the flight deck. But who sets the regulations?
Who sets the impossible rosters, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who let security strip-search crews daily, while refusing to treat their own staff in that fashion?
Who thought it would be an idea to have 'professional' pilots all on zero-hour contracts, and which authority let them get away with it?
When are we going to see the CAA in the dock, instead of the flightdeck?
In all of these accidents we are seeing the blame placed squarely on the flight deck. But who sets the regulations?
Who sets the impossible rosters, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who let security strip-search crews daily, while refusing to treat their own staff in that fashion?
Who thought it would be an idea to have 'professional' pilots all on zero-hour contracts, and which authority let them get away with it?
When are we going to see the CAA in the dock, instead of the flightdeck?
THUNDERTAILED
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Excellent point. In fact it could be the key to this whole disaster. The cojo could have been incapacitated. I can't believe someone who is about to fly a jet into a mountain continued to breathe normally.
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Silverstrata, excellent post. If only the newshounds thought so too.
They will - in time - but I bet there's huge political opposition to highlighting any or all of your points.
They will - in time - but I bet there's huge political opposition to highlighting any or all of your points.
In Post 1161 Denti said this:
Germanwings FOs are on the Lufthansa mainline pay, only exception is that the overtime threshold is higher. The entry level pay is around 68k €/year according to lufthansa management, they enjoy the full benefits of lufthansa. Yes, they have to pay back part of their flight training (60k) which is deducted from their pay in several different ways between which they can choose. Max level pay for an FO at Germanwings is around 130k/year.
There has been no sensible rebuttal of this. In my book this is more than a reasonable salary for a 28 year old - even with a large payback on his training to cover (and I acknowledge some individuals have much larger amounts).
We also have a major dichotomy developing. We have one team saying terms and conditions are a major contributor to pilot mental health and offering it up repeatedly as an excuse for this tragedy. Meanwhile the other team are advocating nobody should be allowed in a jet of reasonable size until they have 1500TT - the so called American model - where pay is dreadful, conditions are worse and as such have been cited in an accident report (Colgan IIRC).
But at risk of repeating myself - depression can hit anyone at any time for a number of reasons.
Oh and for those who still refer those with mental illness as 'nutjobs, nutters, psychos etc' please go back to the 70s where you belong.
Germanwings FOs are on the Lufthansa mainline pay, only exception is that the overtime threshold is higher. The entry level pay is around 68k €/year according to lufthansa management, they enjoy the full benefits of lufthansa. Yes, they have to pay back part of their flight training (60k) which is deducted from their pay in several different ways between which they can choose. Max level pay for an FO at Germanwings is around 130k/year.
There has been no sensible rebuttal of this. In my book this is more than a reasonable salary for a 28 year old - even with a large payback on his training to cover (and I acknowledge some individuals have much larger amounts).
We also have a major dichotomy developing. We have one team saying terms and conditions are a major contributor to pilot mental health and offering it up repeatedly as an excuse for this tragedy. Meanwhile the other team are advocating nobody should be allowed in a jet of reasonable size until they have 1500TT - the so called American model - where pay is dreadful, conditions are worse and as such have been cited in an accident report (Colgan IIRC).
But at risk of repeating myself - depression can hit anyone at any time for a number of reasons.
Oh and for those who still refer those with mental illness as 'nutjobs, nutters, psychos etc' please go back to the 70s where you belong.
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With so many airlines now insisting on the minimum of two in the cockpit, my bet is that there will be a rise in the number of 'Jihadists' applying for jobs as Cabin-Crew....
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I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions.
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions.
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looking at the
PROSECUTER, I wonder whatever happened to aircraft accident investigators.
Gone with the wind ?
No more relevant, I´d say,
as GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT
seems to be the norm for TV , Press and radio.
...just my tow cents.
Note that the BEA accident investigating agency of France has nothing
on its website besides the initial report of 24 Mar. Today, it´s 27 Mar, 08:30z.
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage
Regards,
PROSECUTER, I wonder whatever happened to aircraft accident investigators.
Gone with the wind ?
No more relevant, I´d say,
as GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT
seems to be the norm for TV , Press and radio.
...just my tow cents.
Note that the BEA accident investigating agency of France has nothing
on its website besides the initial report of 24 Mar. Today, it´s 27 Mar, 08:30z.
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage
Regards,
Well put Silvastrata, the pressures on flight crews theses days are extreme, in my humble opinion & it's easier to blame crew than the machine. This one will roll on for years no doubt.
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There are some recurring pointless posts and themes now obscuring this tragic thread. Before refusing to believe anything or putting on rose tinted glasses, I suggest everyone review one of the very few truly enlightening and sensible posts on here, which was from Capt Kremin, who basically called this very early on logical grounds as per known facts. I do not know how to link his posts so reproduce one here, which if you are prepared to consider facts from an experienced Airbus pilot, is worth its weight in gold:
The bewilderment of the Lufthansa CEO regarding this incident is telling.
There has been no mention of any faults being revealed via ACARS. If you cut back to AF447 they were referenced very early in the piece.
The Lufthansa CEO would be apprised very early by his own people if any hint of mechanical problems was evident. But nothing so far except extreme bewilderment.
The aircraft was travelling at excessive speed; in excess of VMO. That is acceptable if you are on fire and heading for Nice or somewhere like that. This aircraft remained on track.
Travelling in excess of VMO in a A320 disconnects the AP and triggers the high speed protections which pitch the aircraft up. This aircraft did not pitch up. Which probably means it was being over-ridden by whomever was flying it.
That raises the possibility that the aircraft was hand flown all the way down.
That is ok if you are trying to get to an airport quickly but this aircraft stayed on track and headed directly for the Alps.
This aircraft did not capture any altitudes. Either the descent altitude was set below 6000 feet on the FCU; unlikely but it could have been done in error for the initial descent, or it was being hand flown.
Pulling open des on an emergency descent, provided a lower altitude is set in the FCU, in cruise engages the speed mode which would have captured the cruise mach, which then would have crossed-over to an IAS somewhere on descent. The autothrust commands IDLE and the selected speed is controlled by the elevators.
Therefore only way to achieve max speed is if someone sets it there. There is no reason to do so, and you certainly don't deliberately fly in excess of VMO. The high speed protections would be fighting against you.
Barring some sort of irrecoverable autoflight glitch, the foul play aspect will be increasingly looked at.
The bewilderment of the Lufthansa CEO regarding this incident is telling.
There has been no mention of any faults being revealed via ACARS. If you cut back to AF447 they were referenced very early in the piece.
The Lufthansa CEO would be apprised very early by his own people if any hint of mechanical problems was evident. But nothing so far except extreme bewilderment.
The aircraft was travelling at excessive speed; in excess of VMO. That is acceptable if you are on fire and heading for Nice or somewhere like that. This aircraft remained on track.
Travelling in excess of VMO in a A320 disconnects the AP and triggers the high speed protections which pitch the aircraft up. This aircraft did not pitch up. Which probably means it was being over-ridden by whomever was flying it.
That raises the possibility that the aircraft was hand flown all the way down.
That is ok if you are trying to get to an airport quickly but this aircraft stayed on track and headed directly for the Alps.
This aircraft did not capture any altitudes. Either the descent altitude was set below 6000 feet on the FCU; unlikely but it could have been done in error for the initial descent, or it was being hand flown.
Pulling open des on an emergency descent, provided a lower altitude is set in the FCU, in cruise engages the speed mode which would have captured the cruise mach, which then would have crossed-over to an IAS somewhere on descent. The autothrust commands IDLE and the selected speed is controlled by the elevators.
Therefore only way to achieve max speed is if someone sets it there. There is no reason to do so, and you certainly don't deliberately fly in excess of VMO. The high speed protections would be fighting against you.
Barring some sort of irrecoverable autoflight glitch, the foul play aspect will be increasingly looked at.
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My only insight into the French legal/criminal system has been gleaned from watching detective and police series from that country.
It does however seem distinctly different to what a lot of people may have experienced or are expecting.
However that it is what is happening and we are going to have to bear with that
and try to understand.
There is no one standard or system even within Europe let alone worldwide.
It does however seem distinctly different to what a lot of people may have experienced or are expecting.
However that it is what is happening and we are going to have to bear with that
and try to understand.
There is no one standard or system even within Europe let alone worldwide.
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As for motive: we do not yet know. One thing is certain, a simple suicide does not kill 150 people. When someone kills 150 people they are making a statement. You can call them a terrorist if you wish - but it may be a lone act such as Breivik in Norway or part of a bigger "cause". Depression alone does not cause someone to kill 150 people, nor a desire to die for oneself. I suggest that time will tell in this case.
