Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
As someone who is involved in the design and building of UAVs, this is an extremely bad idea on many levels. The day there is a "zero pilot cockpit" is the day I will stop flying as pax. It is, in my opinion, impossible to currently write software that will do the same job as a competent pilot.
What I envision (and I sincerely hope to be proven wrong), are airlines controlled remotely by ATC. A human on the ground in a control room will be at the controls, not a computer.
Unless someone can smuggle a weapon or bomb onboard, nobody will ever be able to hijack a plane anymore.
If this is really a suicide, the case for pilotless cockpits just got much more stronger.
Talk about idiots on camera giving away "trade secrets", as some will do or volunteer to say anything just to get on camera.
I have no faith whatsoever in a government to tell the truth, so I don't put too much faith in it's agencies. Remember the cover up of some evidence with the TU144, crash at Le Bourget in the mid '70's, later admitted by a retiree? I am not convinced we have heard all the evidence about the Concorde disaster either.
Too many vested interests at stake here also.
I have no faith whatsoever in a government to tell the truth, so I don't put too much faith in it's agencies. Remember the cover up of some evidence with the TU144, crash at Le Bourget in the mid '70's, later admitted by a retiree? I am not convinced we have heard all the evidence about the Concorde disaster either.
Too many vested interests at stake here also.
Last edited by Dan_Brown; 27th Mar 2015 at 09:08.
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1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.
2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.
3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.
2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.
3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.
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Some people have expressed doubts about what a microphone can pick up.
There are many types of microphone, and in my work I regularly use Pressure Zone (or "Boundary Effect") Mics, as well as standard "Omni-directional" Mics.
These are low cost and freely available, and do indeed pick up everything in a room clearly, and almost equally; thus they are superb for conferences, music and stage work. I do not know what type of mic is used in the flight deck, but miniature versions of all these mics are available.
Even with my fairly basic music/audio software I can enhance and process what the mic has picked up.
I see no reason to cast doubt on what was heard.
There are many types of microphone, and in my work I regularly use Pressure Zone (or "Boundary Effect") Mics, as well as standard "Omni-directional" Mics.
These are low cost and freely available, and do indeed pick up everything in a room clearly, and almost equally; thus they are superb for conferences, music and stage work. I do not know what type of mic is used in the flight deck, but miniature versions of all these mics are available.
Even with my fairly basic music/audio software I can enhance and process what the mic has picked up.
I see no reason to cast doubt on what was heard.
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I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.
Maybe it's because the professionals are waiting to hear the FACTS after the formal investigation is concluded, rather than acting on all the 'facts' provided to us by the media and other unqualified sources.... Some of them wouldn't know an A320 from their a--- !
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Flying Hours
Its been reported that the Co-Pilot had 630hrs of flying time - is that Total Time or Time on Type? If its total time, which would be very odd indeed - what has he been doing for the last 7 or 8 years when that is typically what some pilots knock out in a year minimum?? Either way it looks strange to me!
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1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.
2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.
3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.
2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.
3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.
Sharksandwich - I think the objective in having a crew member in the cockpit when one of the pilots is absent is to have someone other than the pilot available to unlock the door.
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Flying Counsel wrote:
Obviously, you have already made-up your mind and concluded that, after 2 days of investigation and no FDR found, the evidence is conclusive. The authorities might as well stop investigating.
Well, I think they shouldn't. The stuff debated on this network is from and for pilots, who speak a language you may not understand. The concerns raised are real and confront us every day.
And for the record: if the FO took everyone down on purpose, even for this there should be an explanation.
So I suggest, you sit back, read (maybe take notes), and let us deal with the situation the best way know.
"I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions."
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions."
Well, I think they shouldn't. The stuff debated on this network is from and for pilots, who speak a language you may not understand. The concerns raised are real and confront us every day.
And for the record: if the FO took everyone down on purpose, even for this there should be an explanation.
So I suggest, you sit back, read (maybe take notes), and let us deal with the situation the best way know.
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Its been reported that the Co-Pilot had 630hrs of flying time - is that Total Time or Time on Type? If its total time, which would be very odd indeed - what has he been doing for the last 7 or 8 years when that is typically what some pilots knock out in a year minimum?? Either way it looks strange to me!
Apparently he joined the lufthansa flight school in 2008, took a break in 2009 and returned after he was declared fit to fly again. At this time the economic crisis was in full swing and flight training was slowed down as much as possible. After that he worked in the cabin while he was on the waiting list for a flight deck position within the lufthansa group. In 2013 he joined germanwings as a student pilot and completed his MPL there (remember, the full MPL is only issued after the LIFUS phase is completed) and then continued to fly the line there.
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not ideal computer programing?
Just watching the morning news as a bog standard PPL but with many many more hours than the commercial co-pilot! I am a tad surprised on two fronts a) that 2 people in the cockpit was not considered best practice by Europe when the USA did and strikes me as logical b) seeing the flight sim clip where you just dial in the height and say go, it seems odd with such clever systems you can dial in to "crash" when it would seem sensible it should not be able to fly itself below MSA etc unless in landing config accepting you can never completely prevent a very sad individual determined to kill 150 innocent people.
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To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT cheap.
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As mentioned earlier, Airbuses won't allow expedited crashes (unless something has malfunctioned)
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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Oblivia. Accidents like this will definitely accelerate your idea.
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.
About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.
About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!
...at which point all that would be needed is either the codes for the remote control and/or a big enough radio jammer, and you've just affected ALL aircraft rather than just one.
It will most likely depend on the cost-effectiveness of one system compared to the other.
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FLYING COUNSEL
Yet you feel qualified enough to do the accident investigation from your computer seat, even though by your own admission you are not a pilot, engineer, air crash investigator?
My wife is also a lawer, so you should know that applying the law to convict or prove innocence is about presenting ALL the evidence, allowing a unbiased view of the facts both for and against to come to a conclusion.
Unfortunaltly Pprune gives people who are utterly unqualified to have a voice, which is why Pprune has and always will be the place NOT to have an educated discussion.
By all means read the posts, educate yourself in all things aviation if you wish, but don't post your 'expert' opinions based on what you have read in the Daily Mail.
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer
My wife is also a lawer, so you should know that applying the law to convict or prove innocence is about presenting ALL the evidence, allowing a unbiased view of the facts both for and against to come to a conclusion.
Unfortunaltly Pprune gives people who are utterly unqualified to have a voice, which is why Pprune has and always will be the place NOT to have an educated discussion.
By all means read the posts, educate yourself in all things aviation if you wish, but don't post your 'expert' opinions based on what you have read in the Daily Mail.
You give a pilot a key and you've just ensured that whoever wants to hijack the plane will kill him/her or any crewmember who has it in order to get in... you're basically saying go back to the pre-9/11 door system...
I may have missed it but they have 100% confirmed it was the PIC banging on the door?
I may have missed it but they have 100% confirmed it was the PIC banging on the door?
1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.
It follows that the cockpit occupant(s) need to have the ability to unconditionally block access, if necessary. Making sure that decision is made by two people rather than one is probably the best we're going to be able to achieve.
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Oblivia. Accidents like this will definitely accelerate your idea.
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.
About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.
About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!