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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:07
  #1521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Chissay en Touraine, France.
Posts: 36
This would appear to me, to have nothing to do with suicide.
If the guy wanted that, there are many other methods at his disposal, which do not involve the loss of so very many innocents.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:07
  #1522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by McGinty View Post
In some CBC radio interviews that I have done this morning about the crash I mentioned this possibility, and noted that the possible existence of such recordings would produce an ethical problem for the crash investigators. I suggested that such recordings would never ever be made public.
Such recordings (if they exist) are the property of the deceased passengers and must be returned to their relatives. Who then should be free to decide whether to publish them or not.

You cannot simply confiscate property of other people on "moral grounds".
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:07
  #1523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by MsCaptain View Post
emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

This is one thing that is troubling me as well.
This conclusion can reasonably be made by cross matching the timestamps of the ADB mode-s "selected altitude" messages with the timing of the sounds of someone pushing FMC buttons on the CVR.

09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:08
  #1524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alabama
Age: 55
Posts: 366
Airbus computers are the problem
pay to fle is the problem
asian pilots are the problem
not sufficient training is the problem

none of those..pretty sad, maybe is time that the whole industry review the system
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:09
  #1525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Age: 57
Posts: 13
Having Squitter data showing manual input clearly is not, in my opinion, definitive as to state of mind or intent of the F/O. We can deduce, but my question would be, why in the world did the F/O manually input 100, and stay on FP ? I would like a mental health professional to show me the percentage of folks so minded, that would take deliberate action and make no attempt to expedite it, ie, roll it over, nor take advantage of the CVR to explain to his actions to loved ones or those he might have been aggrieved at.

Doesn't add up. And to sit there listening to the pilot banging on the door to get in... human nature is not to just sit there and "know" entry would not be gained in time... and yet he did apparently nothing to expedite departure from controlled flight. Doesn't add up. There is more to this.... just has to be. I don't like speculating and I hate that the media has "solved" it because of the French guy preliminary statement.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:09
  #1526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 10
If I may comment from within my limited area of expertise: people who successfully commit suicide are indeed often oblivious to collateral damage for example a jumper from a tall building who hits an unfortunate passerby on the pavement below. What is extraordinarily rare however is the combination of (1) a successful suicide (not just attempted) who takes a large number of people with him or her in the implementation of the suicide plan; (2) no before- or after- messaging or notes; and (3) a successful suicide plan that requires a sequence of deliberate acts and not a momentary irrevocable act.

And in the absence of information, the vacuum is filled with speculation. (Exactly as I am doing now). People want to be able to assess the risk themselves rather than be patronized by the professionals. This very likely is as true in aviation as it is in my line of work.

When I first lost a friend and classmate in the Silkair crash, is when I first realized just how little information the travelling public were ever allowed to hear or read about these incidents. And how politicized air 'accident'* investigations are (something I'm sure professional pilots decry as well).

*(scare quotes around the word accident because SilkAir was not an accident of course...)
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:10
  #1527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 40
Posts: 38
Security Code Attempt

I have tried to follow-up on the last hours now and wonder whether there has been a source and/or confirmation that the captain did indeed try the security code (30 sec call sound in cockpit, easily to hear on CVR) and that this attempt was denied by the FO?

Earlier, I had read somebody state that LH CEO stated this. But from the TV material I saw now, one cannot derive that. Thanks for your help.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:12
  #1528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: UK
Age: 64
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If the PIC exited the cockpit after cruise was established, then who else (or what else) could have initiated the 'controlled' descent?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:15
  #1529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,413
"Pay and Conditions" may be a contributing factor not necessarily because of financial and emotional stress but because the available rewards affect the size and quality of the recruiting pool from which pilot trainees are selected.

There is also ample evidence, in terms of anecdotal divorce data, that the peripatetic lifestyle of travelling pilots for example, staying in a different hotel room each night, shift work, etc. does not necessarily make it easy to form strong family and social relationships of the sort that provide much support in times of stress.

To put that another way, if we treat piloting as "just another job", and make irrelevant comparisons with the employment stress levels of many posters here, we are missing the point.

Piloting isn't "an ordinary job" because there is a requirement for concise and accurate actions at all times in the air that cannot be delayed. In this piloting resembles the work of surgeons and trial lawyers and not much else. Pretty much everyone else can take time out to consider their course of action, pilots can't. Even ships Captains can anchor and train drivers can stop the train. Pilots can't.

I can well imagine a young pilot, perhaps with domestic personal issues, a crushing training loan to repay, a demanding job performance requirement, a demanding work schedule and an unsympathetic employer or captain, suddenly deciding their "dream job" isn't….and finding it is all too much to cope with.

Please spare me the outraged comments regarding professionalism and irrelevant asides, depression is a very real problem that attacks all levels of society and to think that pilots are some how immune is idiotic.

Mean while the knee jerk response of regulators will probably be to pull the medical certificates of anyone who has ever mentioned "the D word", consulted a psychiatrist or been prescribed SSRIs.


This will not be a popular subject with airline management.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:15
  #1530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: yankton, sd
Posts: 290
SIMPLE QUESTIONS

Was the total time of the copilot some 600 hours , or was that the time in type?

Why would anyone leave a 600 hour pilot alone in the cockpit? I hate using the airplane lavatory in flight. it was only a two hour flight, get my drift?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:18
  #1531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: England
Posts: 265
Dougie bougey - then you you would probably not go anywhere or have anything done if the mental health history of your doctor, taxi driver, train driver, pilot, mechanic etc were to be revealed. At least 1 in 4, remember that.

I would break my heart and somewhat offend me if someone didn't wish me to do my job for them because of a mental health history, especially if I was completely competent.

Granted if one becomes impaired, then they should be taken off duty, but if they are well and capable, why not?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:18
  #1532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
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Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
This is not so. The ATC tag will show the altitude the aircraft is cleared to (controller manual input processed by the ATC FDPS) and the actual FL and attitude of the aircraft (climbing, descending, level) derived from mode C.
No, the OP is correct, at least for those Mode S radars that interrogate for downloadable parameters (DAPs).

The controller gets to see the SELECTED altitude. The whole point is that, by comparing that to the CLEARED altitude, the controller gets an early warning of a potential level bust where the two values aren't the same.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:19
  #1533 (permalink)  
 
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The fact is, if you look after your staff financially, training, roster, leave and generally like a human being, there is less chance they will want to spear an A320 into central France.

[QUOTE]As for ignorance, well by definition as a lack of knowledge, we can all suffer that sometimes but if memory serves, your posts are about dumbing down the career and terms and profitability, then one catastrophic hull and passenger loss will teach you a lot about economics of airline shares if you do indeed hold them./QUOTE]

This was a quote I made from the "airlines making their pilots pay"

GW will find out this cost now.

Federal Express Flight 705 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was a mad jumpseater who tried to kill the pilots, I'm guessing a hostie wouldn't be much of an issue to a man of a mission.


As I said, fix the industry, it will add no more than a euro on a ticket.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:19
  #1534 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Москва/Ташкент
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SilkAir was not an accident of course...
Odysseus, given that you have only made three posts in fifteen years I have to respect what you say, as you obviously felt strongly enough to reply to this.

I would however, for the sake of Captain Tsu, and for those reading like to state that no conclusive evidence was found to prove the tragedy was deliberate, and much of the supposition regarding other personal issues were found to be false (but still persist).

Every few years or so, somebody states definitively that the Silk Air was suicide/murder by Tsu but nothing has been proven, and every few years I'll be here to defend him until anything is proven to the contrary.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:20
  #1535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: wales
Age: 77
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Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.

When all else fails RTFM

http://nicmosis.as.arizona.edu:8000/...329_DSC_25.pdf

if using chrome type this is the FIND box
cockpit door description

click three times and you will read everything about the door itís physical make up and operation.

After a few pages you will see this

COCKPIT DOOR toggle switch

UNLOCK position : This position is used to enable the cabin crewmember to open the door. The switch must be pulled and maintained in the unlock position until the door is pushed open.

NORM position : All latches are locked, and EMERGENCY access is possible for the cabin crew.

LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).

Ie you would not hear any attempts to operate the emergency code, additionally GW CEO has stated their delay is set to 5mins so he had to do it twice during an 8 min descent, he was therefore conscious and capable.

As for your he may have got in a mixup, tell us why he didn't call the ground for help. ie hey you guys how do I let my captain back in?

GW CEO has said he doesn't call killing 149 pax suicide.

It was a cold calculated case of murder.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:21
  #1536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Montenegro
Age: 38
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any psychologists here, why is it that we now have several pilot suicides with many pax killed yet I have never heard of a bus driver doing a suicide and killing the passengers along the way?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:21
  #1537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: very close to STN!!
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ATC can see what we put in our MCP altitude box!

When flying over Europe and cleared to a flight level, we read back the cleared level but put the wrong flight level in, (the next higher, what I had expected and the planned level.) long before getting close ATC called and asked us to confirm assigned flight level. So, they could tell we put the wrong number in the box.

Maybe our aircraft are different.

and by the way, we have been putting a cabin crew in the flightdeck whenever a pilot leaves for years.

Last edited by stator vane; 26th Mar 2015 at 21:22. Reason: correction
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:24
  #1538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 10
Dear flash8: I do respect your position and I thank you for your support of your colleague. May we agree to politely disagree?

For a non-professional-aviator the degree of circumstantial evidence appeared/appears overwhelming and the behavior (in terms of communication) of the investigation authorities reinforce that impression. But an impression it remains, nevertheless; still I hope I did not cause inappropriate distress with my statement: I would word it more carefully if I were to do it again.

Last edited by Odysseus; 26th Mar 2015 at 21:35.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:25
  #1539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 565
Mode-S in Central Europe interrogates MCP/FMS set altitude and QNH setting (FMS for Airbus, which is usually the origin or the destination)

The required equipment is mandatory for the Central Europe airspace.

However the resolution of the data transmitted is 100 feet.

So 13,008 or 96 feet is fake.

A full set of available Mode-S data can be found here
http://rtl1090.web99.de/homepage/ind...=X&PIDX=104415
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 21:27
  #1540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: LAX
Posts: 68
We have to address the fact that pilots are vulnerable to mental illness. The stigma associated with that encourages covering up and the fact that LOL and disability insurance fails to pay creates a system which incentivizes covering up and avoiding treatment.

I can only speak to the situation in the USA, but just about all of the medications that treat depression or anxiety cause one to lose their medical and thus their license.

My handle here is a tribute to a friend, by consent, who's a gifted pilot who fell into the unfortunate situation of severe anxiety including agoraphobia and panic disorder. Despite the meds and the issues he has, there is nobody I would trust more to handle an emergency. It's a paradox but given an emergency, he'd get through it.
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