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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:21
  #1481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
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Nigel makes an interesting point:
In the Jet Blue case in 2012, the lock/security features help keep the mentally unwell pilot out of the cockpit. If the story on this GW A320 remains as it appears right now, it's the inverse of that event.

@ anengineer: I think we need to agree to disagree, as I don't see it through the same lens as you do. What you wrote there tells me that you don't (in a general sense) trust a given flight deck crew. If you don't think you can, then I suggest you arrange other means of transport. My grandfather never once set foot on an airplane. He would travel by train to visit us.
My grandmother would fly to see us. (1960's).
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:22
  #1482 (permalink)  
 
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ICAO Annex 13

What happened to ICAO annex 13?

http://www.icao.int/safety/ism/ICAO%...Annex%2013.pdf

Why is the French Prosecutor releasing CVR data?
Isn't this a violation of ICAO Annex 13?

How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

Many critical questions to be asked.
Speculation is not good for the official investigation.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:24
  #1483 (permalink)  
 
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anengineer
As a passenger, I couldn't care less whether pilots are upset by a 'lack of privacy'. Privacy ?? What on Earth do pilots need privacy for on the flight deck ???? If you are in total control of my life and that of my family, being as you are, in command of a metal tube six miles up in the sky, hurtling along at 500mph, I want everything you do visible, checked, cross-checked and scrutinised. Privacy is not an option.
In all walks of life you have a choice, you don't have to fly, get on a bus, train or any other form of public transport how would you feel being videoed doing your job ? there has to be a level of trust in everything we do.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:25
  #1484 (permalink)  
 
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OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:31
  #1485 (permalink)  
 
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Like most reactive responses to safety and security from knee jerk US-led mono cultural organisations, strengthened cockpit doors and granular inspections of 100ml bottles of shampoo are nothing to do with real safety - they're about the patronising reassurance of passengers assumed to be too thick to understand the futility of these charades, and the interests of companies who sell 'security solutions' to aid the official window dressing.

Let's face it, in a world of ever cheaper fares and screwed-down salary structures, passengers get treated like prisoners on remand and aircrew like jailers with trays. Where's the dignity in that?
Superb
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:31
  #1486 (permalink)  
 
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I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:32
  #1487 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, we ARE accountable!

Flying my A320 in and out of LHR I knew and accepted that my every move was recorded.

There was one time when, due to an expeditious arrival at LHR (i.e. no Holding, but straight in from an embarrassing height and speed), I slightly exceeded a maximum flap deployment speed in my effort to get rid of speed and height. I knew I'd done it. I also knew that it would inevitably be highlighted in the download of the aircraft's day's flying. The only method of defence was 'attack'. And that was to phone the Training Captain in charge of the Flight Safety department as soon as I'd landed and confess that I'd had "a problem".

Honesty was always the best option because you'll be found out anyway.

The important point is, I had absolutely no difficulty with the fact that that my every move was recorded. This was invaluable in building up a picture of each pilot's performance and identifying which airports regularly presented difficulties for arriving pilots. Nice was a prime example.

There are some areas in life where we operate very much in the public domain and are publicly accountable and with good reason.

I know this doesn't add much to the extremely sad scenario of GW 4U9525, but I do want to highlight the degree to which pilots are and need to be publicly accountable for every action when airborne.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:33
  #1488 (permalink)  
 
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As a frequent passenger, and a frequent reader of this forum (I don't usually post because I have only minimal aviation experience at the most basic PPL level), I agree.

Professional airline pilots have a capability to change thousands of lives by such an action and in my travelling lifetime, there have been at least four such incidents that I know of.

I appreciate that the professionals may not like to be on constant video recorders in the cockpit, but then, many other professionals are... Surgeons have their operations recorded, most of us are in workplaces where cameras are switched on during our duties...

And I would have thought that professional pilots themselves would much prefer to know what happened in the cockpit during these occasions rather than have to speculate with the rest of us.

No offence intended but we farepaying passengers value our survival above the right to privacy that some on the board espouse. With respect, I can't trust the fact that a pilot locked behind an unbreachable door can ruin 1000 lives without even the ability to find out what happened in real-time.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:36
  #1489 (permalink)  
 
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Safety pilot

i don't know what happened to my previous post so here again
Is the system of safety pilots during initial line training to cover incapacitation of pic or to be in flt deft when the pic or trainer leaves for physiological breaks?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:37
  #1490 (permalink)  
 
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630 hours is low but no unusual for Europe Ryanair European largest airline has co-pilots flying there jets with much less hours than 630.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:38
  #1491 (permalink)  
 
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... "benefits" of the MPL ... instead of an ATPL
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:39
  #1492 (permalink)  
 
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Condorbaaz it's nothing to do with either. It's simply there because in the initial stages of line training there is so little spare capacity in the RHS that the LHS is very often flying as single pilot and needs all the help he can get.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:39
  #1493 (permalink)  
 
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How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?
Air Traffic Control can see whatever altitude is set in the window from the ground (Mode-S?) and apparently, they would have seen it changed from 38,000ft (the cleared altitude) to 100ft.

My understanding anyway, if an ATCO want's to clear that up, be my guest.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:40
  #1494 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.
It doesn't matter what code you enter if the deadbolt has been used from the inside, you ain't getting in.
In our operation, if the IRCD locking system is defective it can be deferred per the MEL as long as the cockpit side deadbolt is operational and used. Again, you ain't getting in.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:41
  #1495 (permalink)  
 
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The initiator of an extended suicide is often a person suffering from endogenous depression, meaning that its a spontaneous act in the ongoing mental illness. The motivation behind the suicide is often to escape from hard living conditions. Please notice that the studies in this field has been done on men who kills their family and then commit suicide. The generalizability from that area to the flight industry I leave unsaid.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:41
  #1496 (permalink)  
 
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RobertS975

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OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.




What has the number of hours the first officer had got to do with this outcome? If what we are told is correct this incident is not due to lack of skill or knowledge.

It could equally have been a captain with 20000 hours, this is a medical/policy issue not a total number of hours issue.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:42
  #1497 (permalink)  
 
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RobertS975

Join Date: May 2002
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OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.
It's a consequence of the pay to fly culture that has taken root in Europe. Airlines, especially budget airlines, will not recruit anyone with experience preferring so called cadets out of whom they make money. Hence we get co pilots with less than the hours required to get a U.S. licence flying passenger jets., up to now the public have not given a stuff as they only want cheap tickets. This will hopefully change but I'm not holding my breath. With 600 hours I and most of my peers were flying turboprops under close supervision and knew just enough to realise what we did not know.

We reap what we sow.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:43
  #1498 (permalink)  
 
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Im completely unknowledgeable

how things work in the cockpit. Nonetheless I have a wife who's afraid of flying and I started reading on this forum after shes freaking out a bit as she was completely confident of Lufthansa and subsidiaries.

Suicide or murder, whatever you want to call it what the FO apparently did, Im puzzled about the following things, and maybe someone here has an answer for me.

The French state prosecutor talked about:
- Normal knocks on the door.
- After that, strong knocks on the door.
- After that, the captain trying to break in the door.

He did not mention the cockpit alarms emerging when the emergency door code was entered on the outside keypad? (Ive seen the youtube video on the door mechanism).

Why did he mention sounds of "normal breathing", but not of door opening alarms in the cockpit?

Did the pilot (or cabin crew) therefore really use the correct emergency procedure to get into the cockpit?

Furthermore:

- If the FO becomes unconscious (for whatever reason), you continue to breath normally. To me its not a bullet-proof explanation that the FO did it intentionally.

Im the last to read into conspiracy theories, but its not 100% clear to me and would like to try to understand.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:44
  #1499 (permalink)  
 
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I can't believe that the First Officer has been accused, charged, tried and convicted, and we don't yet have the FDR to be sure of the sequence of events or exactly what happened and why!
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 20:44
  #1500 (permalink)  
 
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@ Zeddb

So a 20,000 hour pilot cannot suffer from a depressive episode? Jeez talk about clutching at straws.
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