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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:35
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armchairpilot94116 View Post
The ability of one pilot being able to commit suicide by taking out the whole plane, by locking out the other pilot has got to end.

My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.

Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.
your iphone fingerprint system was very quickly cracked as were other features of that ios release.

any way if a hijacker held a gun to your head and put your finger over the scanner bingo he is in, without the PIC authorising the entry.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:35
  #1402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheelsright View Post
Apparently they have the MCP settings from the Mode S- extended squitter (ES). That's how they know it was intentional.
Is there official confirmation of that? Selected altitude/rate parameters would establish the intention of altitude change.
It would have been very strange if ATC hadn't been recording Selected Altitude, given that there would have been several Mode S radars within range, interrogating the flight for that and other parameters (ironically, to detect a level bust).

See here: We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat

for the couple of seconds during which SEL ALT was changed from 38,000ft to 100ft.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:37
  #1403 (permalink)  
 
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hmm one has to be one big sick MF with ice for a heart to point a gun to the head of 149 people including children and wait calmly for the trigger to be pulled in about 8 minutes or so, without a sound, ignoring everyone.

IMV this has nothing to do with depression.

Regarding the cockpit door: replace the expensive door lock systems by an air marshal, close enough to the cockpit.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:39
  #1404 (permalink)  
 
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Not Terrorism Not SUICIDE

There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.

The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.

There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND

It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.

Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:41
  #1405 (permalink)  
 
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A thought;

Simply move the cockpit door rearwards so that the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck, (sorry passengers - you will have to use the rear toilets). That way, no pilot can be locked out of the flight deck while going to the loo.

The only time that either pilot would then need to go through the locked door would be to board or de-plane at each end of their flying duty.

The controls and operation of the locked cockpit door by the pilots would be just the same as it is now, but the door would be moved about a meter back.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:42
  #1406 (permalink)  
 
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And then what if the Air Marshal then has nefarious intentions? We just keep going round and round in circles. At the end of the day we just have to accept that in life we live with some very sick people who have the potential to cause us harm. We can never get rid of this risk completely just as we can't get rid of the element of risk in all parts of life. What if a tree fell down and killed someone, do we then chop down all trees so they can't harm anyone any more?

Is it horrific and tragic what has happened but it is exactly the same as what happened in Mumbai or in Sandy Hook or in Columbine High School. If someone wants to cause other people harm they will do, regardless of what we do.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:43
  #1407 (permalink)  
 
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Cost conscious airlines versus diligent training and working conditions

In my mind it is unavoidable that airlines will work constantly towards lowest possible cost. They can hardly be blamed for that, as after the de-regulation of air travel and the abolition of state supported airlines, the role of the CEO is to ensure maximum long term return on investment for his shareholders. All other aims to him are secondary, it is simply economics.

This automatically implies government or supra-governmental organizations will need to ensure this normal drive does not affect safety. Safety can never be self regulatory and requires stiff regulation. Not easy.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:43
  #1408 (permalink)  

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Nothing that I've read so far mentions the captain saying anything while trying to get back onto the flight deck. Surely, before setting to with whatever he was using to try to open the door, he would have called to the FO, and the FO would presumably have replied.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:46
  #1409 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Keef,

From recollection, the prosecutor mentioned that the captain at first knocked gently and later was more forceful on attempting to re-enter, I am assuming this will have included verbal attempts.

The prosecutor also said that the FO did not utter a single word after the Captain left the flight deck. This must therefore mean he did not pick up the intercom nor replied to the captain through the door.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:46
  #1410 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry it is in French, Norwegian doing an "Easy" .

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/internati...707e3e941f7af8
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:47
  #1411 (permalink)  
 
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@Keef apparently there was never an answer to the Cpts queries, so the Marseille prosecutor said.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:48
  #1412 (permalink)  
 
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vanHork

Airline safety is better than it has been for a LONG time. Please provide evidence that the current approach to business is not as safe as the state run airlines once were.

I can't think of anywhere where safety is self regulating. There are regulators to oversee safety.

And with respect all of the previous examples of pilot suicide have been national carriers/full service/state airlines. Let's stop the LCC bashing.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:49
  #1413 (permalink)  
 
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"The Thought Process behind suicide"

Originally Posted by horizon flyer View Post
In fact RiSq I believe someone committing suicide is thinking very logically. What they see is no future, so why carry on, there is no point, so end it all.

This is the thought process behind suicide. So why did he think he had no future? that is the question.
There is no one (logical or illogical) thought process at work in cases of suicide in general. Only a complex, individual-specific multitude of factors - including - but not limited to - external stressors (e.g. Financial or relationship problems); poor coping strategies, developmental factors, addiction, mental health issues / diagnoses). The thought process in psychosis would not be described as logical, and suicide may occur secondary to a delusional process, command hallucinations, PTSD or other symptoms. Incidentally, this can actually be accurately described as a suicide/homicide. There will never just be one 'reason' to explain a complex interplay of biological, social, psychological, environmental stressors and factors. From a mental health professional - not a pilot.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:49
  #1414 (permalink)  
 
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This is story is really both tragic and hard to believe.

That being said I think we have to recognize that it would be tremendously complex - if not impossible - to setup a system that would prevent a repeat with a high degree of confidence. Simply put if a pilot wants to crash the plane he can do it. Yes some protections could be put in place but they would create new issues by themselves - on a pure risk / reward / cost analysis I guess the best action is to do nothing I leve with the (thankfully) very very low risk of another such atrocity.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:49
  #1415 (permalink)  
 
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banjodrone
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.
Well blame the authorities for this situation, it was not that long ago when they more or less scrapped the self improver route, (PPL, Instructor, CPL, Turboprop, 1500 hours later ATPL and maybe the right seat of a jet) in the UK in favour of young button pushing wannabes coming out with a licence after 200 hours !!!!!
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:49
  #1416 (permalink)  
 
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There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.

The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.

There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND

It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.

Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
Excellent point!
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:51
  #1417 (permalink)  
 
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I can remember reading a book written by psychos about stress in flying when I was heavily involved in training.

It was a very interesting read and I can still remember smiling hugely at the comment that:

"7% of pilots holding a CPL or higher are, technically speaking, clinically mad".

Despite the odd (no pun intended) eccentric student, I never really felt that this was a valid figure but I am beginning to wonder.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:51
  #1418 (permalink)  
 
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G-ARVH, you are correct in saying that change is needed in this industry.

That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.

Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.

Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.

It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….
I agree with all you say. However since 10.00UTC today airline shares around the world have have been falling steadily. 8.5% of the value of Lufthansa has disappeared into the ionosphere over the last 48 hrs. Much figure drumming will be taking place on airline boardroom tables. By 10.00UTC tomorrow (Friday) the international insurance market will have more bad news for the boardroom bosses. The insurance industry will not tolerate the multiple millions of dollars of hull losses we have seen over the past 12 months. This will put more unwanted pressure on the boardroom.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:51
  #1419 (permalink)  
 
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Could the sounds of hammering at the door have been items of cabin luggage percuting the door?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:53
  #1420 (permalink)  
 
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Depression can cause people to kill themselves; by itself it does not cause people to commit mass murder. That's a whole different mental illness, and one that good psychological testing arguably should have picked up during the hiring process.

Having said that, the argument that a second person in the cockpit is not really a safeguard against this kind of behavior- because a pilot bent on such mass murder would simply start with the person next to him - is flawed. It's one thing to change a couple of switches to cause a plane full of people to crash; it's another thing to batter a co-worker to death in a confined space. The mindset that can do the first is not necessarily one that will do the second.
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