Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Prosecutor
The Prosecutor of Marseille observed at the beginning of his presentation, and he seemed a little bit annoyed that he would have liked to be informed earlier about the contents of the CVR. He did not listen to it by himself but only read a document. Dialogues were translated into French.
At the very beginning of his declaration, the Prosecutor announced it had opened an investigation for "voluntary homicide", that's what I understood as well as journalists. Asked later about this, the Prosecutor said that the his judicial inquiry was for "manslaughter" contrary to what everyone had understood. He said immediately after, that he might re-qualify this into "intentional homicide" in light of the information in his possession. He would seem that the prosecutor did some kind of lapsus linguae
At the very beginning of his declaration, the Prosecutor announced it had opened an investigation for "voluntary homicide", that's what I understood as well as journalists. Asked later about this, the Prosecutor said that the his judicial inquiry was for "manslaughter" contrary to what everyone had understood. He said immediately after, that he might re-qualify this into "intentional homicide" in light of the information in his possession. He would seem that the prosecutor did some kind of lapsus linguae
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@Andy_S looks like someone on here has deleted my suggestion. What a 
Only the Pilot leaving the cockpit know's the code he has entered. It's something he must remember whilst using the facilities. It can't be that hard can it? You are telling me that the Pilot leaving the cockpit is going to be interrogated by terrorists at that instance and force a code from him? I highly doubt it.
We are using an outdated system post-9/11 that is fictitious. It needs changing, clearly. If MAS370 is found out to be similar to this incident, then we know we have a few rouge pilots possibly still flying around the world ready to strike. In the digital age, you'd think something better than a keypad could be used for entry/exit of a cockpit door. Entering a one-time only code a bit like RSA SecurID into a NEW exit panel for the cockpit, and being able to use this to gain entry would negate this issue, and if in use 3 days ago. The captain could have re-entered the cockpit. Same with Ethiopian last year and possibly MAS370.
Only the Pilot leaving the cockpit know's the code he has entered. It's something he must remember whilst using the facilities. It can't be that hard can it? You are telling me that the Pilot leaving the cockpit is going to be interrogated by terrorists at that instance and force a code from him? I highly doubt it. We are using an outdated system post-9/11 that is fictitious. It needs changing, clearly. If MAS370 is found out to be similar to this incident, then we know we have a few rouge pilots possibly still flying around the world ready to strike. In the digital age, you'd think something better than a keypad could be used for entry/exit of a cockpit door. Entering a one-time only code a bit like RSA SecurID into a NEW exit panel for the cockpit, and being able to use this to gain entry would negate this issue, and if in use 3 days ago. The captain could have re-entered the cockpit. Same with Ethiopian last year and possibly MAS370.
Last edited by HeathrowAirport; 26th Mar 2015 at 13:28. Reason: Digital Age.
1. Because the doors are designed to withstand a grenade attack
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
there are fire axes inthe main cabins.
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NigelOnDraft
That argument really doesn't stand up I'm afraid and is no justification for not having a simple and effect procedure in place that may be a possible preventable solution to recent tragedies. I think you'll find it becomes an absolute requirement for all operators very soon. It's a multi crew team orientated environment. We all oversee one another throughout the whole operation. This is no different. A simple protection against any form of incapacitation.
TWO PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES DURING FLIGHT. Facilitated by a member of cabin crew remaining momentarily on the flight deck (as they would during single pilots ops in the event of a pilot incapacitation) during toilet breaks etc. It's not new. It's already applied. It should be mandatory. Nuff said!
That argument really doesn't stand up I'm afraid and is no justification for not having a simple and effect procedure in place that may be a possible preventable solution to recent tragedies. I think you'll find it becomes an absolute requirement for all operators very soon. It's a multi crew team orientated environment. We all oversee one another throughout the whole operation. This is no different. A simple protection against any form of incapacitation.
TWO PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES DURING FLIGHT. Facilitated by a member of cabin crew remaining momentarily on the flight deck (as they would during single pilots ops in the event of a pilot incapacitation) during toilet breaks etc. It's not new. It's already applied. It should be mandatory. Nuff said!
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Would breathing sound normal if you were somewhat in hypoxia and went into a bit of a trance?
I'm remembering a tube incident now - the 1975 Moorgate disaster - where they reckon the motorman (Leslie Newsom?) went into a trance of some sort and, keeping his hand firmly on the dead man's handle, drove the train straight through the station and hit the end of the tunnel. Wasn't drunk, or on anything, and was unlikely to be suicidal. I seem to remember he had hundreds of quid in his pocket to buy his daughter a car or something after work.
But then in that Egypt Air crash - the first officer who was blamed for murder-suiciding the plane was bringing care tyres home for his son on the flight! Not sure I'd bother if I was planning something like that.
Is there a piloty equivalent of the tunnel trance they reckon Mr. Newsom went into? If it was at night I reckon most would be saying he'd lost his spatial awareness.
Can I also add, as my SLF two bobs worth, that I'd rather pay a few quid extra and see three people on the flight decks again than, as others have suggested, further automation and removal of pilots. Three brains are used in most plane systems, aren't they?
I'm remembering a tube incident now - the 1975 Moorgate disaster - where they reckon the motorman (Leslie Newsom?) went into a trance of some sort and, keeping his hand firmly on the dead man's handle, drove the train straight through the station and hit the end of the tunnel. Wasn't drunk, or on anything, and was unlikely to be suicidal. I seem to remember he had hundreds of quid in his pocket to buy his daughter a car or something after work.
But then in that Egypt Air crash - the first officer who was blamed for murder-suiciding the plane was bringing care tyres home for his son on the flight! Not sure I'd bother if I was planning something like that.
Is there a piloty equivalent of the tunnel trance they reckon Mr. Newsom went into? If it was at night I reckon most would be saying he'd lost his spatial awareness.
Can I also add, as my SLF two bobs worth, that I'd rather pay a few quid extra and see three people on the flight decks again than, as others have suggested, further automation and removal of pilots. Three brains are used in most plane systems, aren't they?
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Skot
As far as I know it's still an EASA requirement to have a crash axe in the cabin, even 2 of those for larger planes.
1. Because the doors are designed to withstand a grenade attack
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
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Could someone from the industry please tell us if there are any consequences for your medical if you ask for help because you feel severly depressed? Imagine this young guy, just two years on the job, feeling more and more depressed. Would he be afraid to seek medical help because this might be the end of his career? This itself would have started a self-enforcing cycle of helplessness and seeing no way out other than suiciding himself. Tighter screening would thus be counter-productive. If this guy was able to turn himself in, get diagnosed properly and e.g. be treated with one of the modern drugs like citalopram or escitalopram he might well be fit to fly (IF he suffered from depression, might be some other condition as well). A few years ago, we had a discussion here on PPRuNe about alcoholism and how it is a medical condition that needs professional help to get out of. And how many pilots delay seeking help because they are afraid of losing their job...
For an industry that prides itself on OCD-like standardization and monitoring of behavior, why would a company take a risk on an individual?
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This accident resembles the one with Mozambican Airlines (LAM) in November 2013. By now ICAO should have changed the rules prohibiting that anyone (pilot) is left alone at the cockpit at any single time during a flight. Seeing something like this repeating.
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1. Because the doors are designed to withstand a grenade attack
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
2. Because you think it's a sensible idea to have an axe in the main cabin?
2. Yes, there is. Obviously not going to detail where.
Edit: Few posters got there before me. In any case, I don't think the press conference stated whether a fire axe could be heard being used.
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Lord Farringdon
I think you make a good point.
Airlines, in recent years, have been putting more pressure on pilots, basically asking a lot more for less and less.
It may turn out that this relatively young pilot may have had any number of stressors in his life caused by the way that we now recruit, train and employ.
Pilots and their employers are constantly in a battle over cost reductions and efficiency savings.
Maybe it's time that we looked after the pilots a bit better and stopped regarding them as a bunch of overpaid prima donnas.
Airlines, in recent years, have been putting more pressure on pilots, basically asking a lot more for less and less.
It may turn out that this relatively young pilot may have had any number of stressors in his life caused by the way that we now recruit, train and employ.
Pilots and their employers are constantly in a battle over cost reductions and efficiency savings.
Maybe it's time that we looked after the pilots a bit better and stopped regarding them as a bunch of overpaid prima donnas.
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It always amazes me how many assumptions are made...
It may be that the Pilot did not have the correct code to enter (there could be a variety of reasons for this scenario).
It may be that the door lock/keypad malfunctioned and/or had a history of malfunction.
If may be that the PF had some kind of medical emergency outside of being a psycho or being a terrorist.
Plus a plethora of other unlikely scenarios...
In an investigation you should not be seduced by the most likely explanation. It is always tempting to discount unlikely events but it is almost always unlikely events or a series of unlikely events that precipitates disaster.
It may be that the Pilot did not have the correct code to enter (there could be a variety of reasons for this scenario).
It may be that the door lock/keypad malfunctioned and/or had a history of malfunction.
If may be that the PF had some kind of medical emergency outside of being a psycho or being a terrorist.
Plus a plethora of other unlikely scenarios...
In an investigation you should not be seduced by the most likely explanation. It is always tempting to discount unlikely events but it is almost always unlikely events or a series of unlikely events that precipitates disaster.
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Originally Posted by MaxReheat
If nothing else, this tragedy highlights what every flightcrew member has been saying to each other since the knee-jerk secuirty reactions came in post 9/11; that if one of us wanted to crash our aircraft, we could do so with little difficulty.
This exposes the security farce - no yoghurts, bottled drinks, Swiss Army knives etc - that we have been forced to accept fro the past 14 years.
As a previous poster said; we should be part of the aviation security solution. The politically-driven authorities have never accepted this and this awful incident has blown a hole in their logic with regard to flightcrew and security.
This exposes the security farce - no yoghurts, bottled drinks, Swiss Army knives etc - that we have been forced to accept fro the past 14 years.
As a previous poster said; we should be part of the aviation security solution. The politically-driven authorities have never accepted this and this awful incident has blown a hole in their logic with regard to flightcrew and security.
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BBC reporting:
David Gleave, an air accident investigator whose specialty is pilot suicides, says the aviation industry needs to start looking at the psychological profiles of pilots. "We may find that this pilot had various stresses that may have led to some form of relatively irrational behaviour. It could be a vast amount of debt taken out for pilot training, it could be family matters, it could be religious matters. There's all sorts of areas that the psychological specialist will start to look at during the investigation but I certainly think that it's going to be reviewed fairly quickly."
David Gleave, an air accident investigator whose specialty is pilot suicides, says the aviation industry needs to start looking at the psychological profiles of pilots. "We may find that this pilot had various stresses that may have led to some form of relatively irrational behaviour. It could be a vast amount of debt taken out for pilot training, it could be family matters, it could be religious matters. There's all sorts of areas that the psychological specialist will start to look at during the investigation but I certainly think that it's going to be reviewed fairly quickly."
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TWO PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES DURING FLIGHT. Facilitated by a member of cabin crew remaining momentarily on the flight deck (as they would during single pilots ops in the event of a pilot incapacitation) during toilet breaks etc. It's not new. It's already applied. It should be mandatory. Nuff said!
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@fastjet45 I agree it wouldn't be spur of the moment however if he didn't know he'd be alone the tone of his voice should make no difference, that moment could have come anytime but the way it's been reported makes it sound like he was plotting to do something because he knew he was about to be alone.
I've suffered severe depression myself in the past which has reared it's ugly head after feeling better at times. I remember doing a medical questionnaire for a job and I purposely did not mention my history on this as I know the stigma that surrounds it. The job before that I only came out about it as I was being disciplined and I needed to tell the truth to save my job, work life after that admission was tough so it wouldn't surprise me if he was suffering he wouldn't want to tell anyone even more so being in a job where good physical and mental health is needed. Imagine not only having to admit depression but admitting that after years of hard work and getting your dream job you have to admit that even that isn't making you happy. Obviously though I can only give my opinion on what I felt and put that in to the shoes of someone in that job, I am by no means saying this was what was in his mind.
I've suffered severe depression myself in the past which has reared it's ugly head after feeling better at times. I remember doing a medical questionnaire for a job and I purposely did not mention my history on this as I know the stigma that surrounds it. The job before that I only came out about it as I was being disciplined and I needed to tell the truth to save my job, work life after that admission was tough so it wouldn't surprise me if he was suffering he wouldn't want to tell anyone even more so being in a job where good physical and mental health is needed. Imagine not only having to admit depression but admitting that after years of hard work and getting your dream job you have to admit that even that isn't making you happy. Obviously though I can only give my opinion on what I felt and put that in to the shoes of someone in that job, I am by no means saying this was what was in his mind.
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According to the BBC News website, they say the French Prosecutor is saying the act was deliberate ie suicide. That the F/O deliberately hit the button to put the plane into a dive.
Yet seems to me that there have been enough valid reasons put forward here (no audible tone heard on button push/ temporary loss of critical thinking meaning the door delay button accidentally pressed) that the French prosecutor simply cannot state that.
Yet seems to me that there have been enough valid reasons put forward here (no audible tone heard on button push/ temporary loss of critical thinking meaning the door delay button accidentally pressed) that the French prosecutor simply cannot state that.
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I recall a conversation with a major airline training captain in 1994, where he stated that pilots were henceforth going to be just another component in the company, and that training, ability and all else would be secondary to costs. Apart from JAL 351 in 1982 (where the pilot was mentally upset, but the company had known about it for 2 years and done nothing), it seems that pilot suicides in airliners started in 1994.
I would suggest that overworked, underpaid, highly indebted and significantly less capable pilots (because the good ones won't put up with the first 3) might have something to do with this.
Go reread the Colgan Air report.
I would suggest that overworked, underpaid, highly indebted and significantly less capable pilots (because the good ones won't put up with the first 3) might have something to do with this.
Go reread the Colgan Air report.
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As far as I know it's still an EASA requirement to have a crash axe in the cabin, even 2 of those for larger planes.
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Batman737
You need to take on board that the reason that it is not done, is that it would not be a foolproof way to totally stop the possibility of death by pilot.
The best you could hope for would be a 3 pilot crew, but since 90% of civil flights are 2 pilot, it is immediately obvious that the global airline industry would come to a sudden halt due to insufficient manpower. It can barely cope with the low pilot numbers right now.
It's also worth noting that out of those 3 pilot operations the 3rd pilot is often asleep in the crew bunk. Getting necessary rest so that he can safely operate the aircraft.
The best you could hope for would be a 3 pilot crew, but since 90% of civil flights are 2 pilot, it is immediately obvious that the global airline industry would come to a sudden halt due to insufficient manpower. It can barely cope with the low pilot numbers right now.
It's also worth noting that out of those 3 pilot operations the 3rd pilot is often asleep in the crew bunk. Getting necessary rest so that he can safely operate the aircraft.
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I'm of the opinion that an airliner is designed to have 2 pilots to properly fly it, and without exception in the case of an emergency. It is unacceptable that SOP allows for the flight deck to be manned solo, even for a short amount of time. Other than installing a bucket in the flight deck I don't know a solution, but it seems like a massive over sight.
