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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:43
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't the suicide suggestion conjecture?

I think some of you need reminding that what you heard today was just an input to an investigation, not the conclusion of one.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:43
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
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AFP

Posted at12:24

"Brice Robin said the responses of the co-pilot, named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, were initially courteous but became "curt" when the captain began to give a mid-flight briefing, about the planned landing of the Germanwings flight. The plane's eventual crash in the French alps killed 150 people". Scary stuff.
I don't see how the FO would concidentally become ill when Cpt goes to toilette. It sounds like a deliberate act, something impossible to predict. Unusual for a suicidal "non-ISIS" person to take so many lives with him. Very complicated incident. Hopefully there is somebody who knows more, especially family and friends. He was clearly mentally impaired. Prosecutor must know more to exclude officially any illness, this was deliberate but why? We will soon find out exact reason.

Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 26th Mar 2015 at 15:46. Reason: correction
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:48
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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Is the French Prosecutor saying too much?

Not a pilot but all this seems highly irregular for an aircraft disaster investigation.

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.
It's quite possible the gent is unacquainted with the kind of painstaking, fact based, non-judgmental, non-accusatory mindset that I understand is needed for successful, quality air accident investigatory work.

Last edited by AmuDarya; 26th Mar 2015 at 15:49. Reason: Grammar
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:54
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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IFPS man Isn't the suicide suggestion conjecture? Was it not possible that the F/O was starting to have some massive medical event just before the captain left the flight deck and which subsequently developed into him becoming unconscious. iF any post mortem examination is possible, could that be determined?
Answer to your PM question and toxicology is simply yes but only if you have enough tissue available to analyse. Depends upon how much blood is still present in tissues and the exposure to air/temp etc. There is a time limit to this if you are questioning things like carbon mono oxide etc. Hypoxia can not be determine in these cases unless a fully body ( or very large chunks of it) can be found.
(sorry if some of you find it too gory, please feel free to delete it if Mods thing that it is too gory for non medics)
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:58
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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IFPS man - I agree with your suggestion, quite possible.
Also, I remember attending a talk a couple of years ago by a guy representing a major manufacturer (unfortunately can't remember) who described a safety system using a GPS-referenced global terrain map, detailed right down to building level, which would prevent an a/c being flown into any obstacle (in questions he said it could even have prevented the 9/11 scenario). Wish I could remember the company and name of the system - does anyone else know about this?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:58
  #1286 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think a medical event accounts for the loss of altitude, and also potentially overriding the door lock control.

"..... and activated the button that commands the loss of altitude," the prosecutor, Brice Robin, said.

He said it appeared that the intention of the co-pilot, identified as Andreas Lubitz, had been "to destroy the aircraft." He said that the voice recorder showed that the co-pilot had been breathing until before the moment of impact, suggesting that he was conscious and deliberate in killing 144 passengers and five other crew members in the French Alps on Tuesday.

The inquiry had shown that the crash was intentional, Mr. Robin said, and he was considering changing his investigation from involuntary manslaughter to voluntary manslaughter."

Prosecutor: Co-pilot, alone at helm of Germanwings, began descent manually, 'intentionally'
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 15:58
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
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The 320 has a control stick so slumping forward would not affect it. The door lock switch is on the left rear of the centre pedestal so no, could not accidentally be operated. It's also gated, needs to be lifted to operate. Incapacitation of the pilot inside would not stop the locked-out pilot gaining entry. Also incapacition would not affect the flight profile. The aircraft would continue it's flight plan. The pilot inside has selected either VS or FPA to put it in a descent.
An early solution to these occupancies would be to bring back the flight engineer.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:02
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
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Lufthansa CEO said that the overriding of the entry code from within the cockpit led to a 5 minute block on the next attempt. If the code was being entered every 5 minutes, it would appear very unlikely that the first officer in the cockpit was incapacitated.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:04
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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What, and repeatedly block the entry of the other crew members to the cabin by making a switch selection? Whilst unconscious?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:04
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AmuDarya
Not a pilot but all this seems highly irregular for an aircraft disaster investigation.

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.
It's quite possible the gent is unacquainted with the kind of painstaking, fact based, non-judgmental, non-accusatory mindset that I understand is needed for successful, quality air accident investigatory work.
After somebody leaked the information to the New York Times, who published it this morning, there was nothing else that could be done by the BEA then bringing it out.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:06
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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> If the co-pilot is slumped forward, is it not possible that his arm, ipad, checklist or whatever gets pushed onto the door locking button which is right next to him? Surely that is possible.

Given the A320 cockpit layout, very unlikely. Also doesn't account for the descent. (A/P switch and alt controls are up on panel and sidestick is to the side)

Some airlines have iPad holders (I know QF does for example). On the A320 there is a pull out table right in front of you, I would think that would be a place to rest your iPad.

The simplest answer is probably right, this was a deliberate act. It is the only credible answer that can account for the timing, the lockout of the captain, and the descent.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:07
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
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4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
Prosecutor's statements do seem to be unnecessarily conclusive at this stage... surely the circumstances of the descent or the prevention of entry to FD require further investigation and facts to properly establish "intention".

If there is other conclusive evidence or facts to support the allegation of intent there would appear little reason to conceal them. Surely any statement should include the reasons for such a conclusion. I do not see that the published facts establish any more than a strong likelihood at this stage; there still remain other possibilities.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:08
  #1293 (permalink)  
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people going on about alternative theories - seriously ???

If they are saying that
a)the pilot was being kept out of the cockpit by manual controls inside the cockpit
b ) the copilot was inputting manually the controls multiple times to guide the plane down and
c) heard breathing

clearly the co pilot crashed the plane intentionally

I did like when the CEO of LH said something along the lines of " when you fly a plane into a mountain with 150 pax it isnt suicide, it is another word...... "
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:09
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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@RussellBrown

He was not "due to a 40% wage cut".

The German (weekly) Newspaper "DIE ZEIT" had an online - article today. Lufthansa plans to use their daughter "Eurowings" instead of "Germanwings" in the near future. One reason is, that Eurowings has 40% lower wages.

Absturz stellt Lufthansa-Konzept in Frage | ZEIT ONLINE

(sorry - in German)

This does not mean, that Lufthansa or Germanwings Crew - Members will have a wage cut. Lufthansa planned not to use the brand "Germanwings" anymore in the future. And they planned to stop selling "Germanwings" tickets from October.

But Lufthansa didn´t plan to liquidate "Germanwings". The plan was (is?) to use the Germanwings planes with their Crews in a form of wetlease.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:10
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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Cockpit Door

I saw somewhere that the door would have automatically unlocked in the case of an explosive decompression. Is this so? (I'm a truckie - so no SLF!)
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:13
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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I don't get the people mentioning about reduction in T&Cs etc as a possible reason for doing this. It may put a huge financial strain on his life, who knows, but it is no excuse to take 149 innocent souls with you and leave a permanent wake of despair with his family and friends for their lifetimes. Harsh but there are other ways of doing it solo.
Post 9/11 procedures have brought along their own unique set of problems and I am still amazed how the FFPO program got passed when you look at the tragic consequences of the Germanwings event.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:14
  #1297 (permalink)  

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Egyptair/Air Botswana/Silkair/Royal Air Maroc/ Malaysian 370?/J.A.L, etc.etc

Sadly there have already been documented a number of pilot suicides in the air which have taken the lives of many passengers. This is the first Western one that I am aware of. Equally there have been a number of cases of both young and middle-aged pilots taking their own lives on their own, either on the ground or airborne and solo. In an average population, suicide does happen regularly. It is inevitable that the same risk applies to the pilot profession.

Calm thinking is needed following this relatively rare episode. There is no quick solution to this awful possibility if one wants to maintain a secure flight deck from terrorists. Access to disturbed pilots and cabin staff is always there, locked door or otherwise. But a repeat of 9/11 is waiting to happen if vigilance is relaxed on flight deck access. That was far worse in absolute numbers and remains so.

Sad business.

Last edited by RoyHudd; 26th Mar 2015 at 16:20. Reason: Grammar
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:16
  #1298 (permalink)  
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A mother of a schoolmate of co-pilot Andreas Lubitz told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung he had told her daughter that he had taken a break from his pilot training because he was suffering from depression.

"Apparently he had a burnout, he was in depression," the woman, whom the paper did not name.

She said her daughter had seen him again just before Christmas and that he had appeared normal. The mother of his schoolmate said he was a "lovely boy". "He had a good family background," she told the paper.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:16
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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Question about locking out the keypad. If the FO locked out the keypad prior to the CN entering the code I believe that there would be no audible entry alert if a code is then entered, how do they know the CN did not try the emergency access code? Would the keypad beeps when entering the code be heard on the CVR or is that also disabled when the switch is moved to lock? I am pretty sure it is not a parameter on the FDR so they can't be sure no attempt was made by emergency access code.

Am I wrong about the buzzer and keypad being disabled?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 16:16
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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Suicidal Arab terrorists don't have to fight into the cockpit and kill themselves and 150 passengers any more.

Legislation is doing it for them.
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