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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 2nd Apr 2017, 14:36
  #3461 (permalink)  
 
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Have to say I'm struggling with the AvH take on this on this.

You can argue about legal process perhaps, but.....

P1 can't enter flightdeck. Why? Because according to AvH there's no evidence he entered the emergency code ( well AFAIK there wouldn't be...) or it might due to a mystery defect reported previously.

Then somehow (presumably AvH think due to another fault, coincident with the door remaining locked) the aircraft begins a descent that ends with ground impact....
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 15:04
  #3462 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed. Still don't understand why Lubitz used his oxy mask....
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 09:03
  #3463 (permalink)  
 
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Translation: "Here at Avherald, we have an extremely flimsy understanding of the way an accident investigation is carried out, its scope, and (perhaps most importantly) its purpose. But we're not going to let that get in the way of some free publicity."

This means AvH has lost any remaining shreds of credibility in my eyes.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 10:37
  #3464 (permalink)  
 
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AvH has gone downhill. Last week the author was saying that the laptop restrictions were a threat to safety because of the batteries and had some seriously overly dramatic headline. Completely ignoring the fact that it was to reduce the risk of a terror attack.

I'm waiting for a 'new take' on MH370 (perhaps aliens?) or 9/11 being missiles dressed up as airliners and all of the passengers are being held in Area 51.

It seems AvHerald is trying to go more mainstream. RIP AvHerald.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 10:42
  #3465 (permalink)  
 
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Elvis alive?
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 10:46
  #3466 (permalink)  
 
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AVherald's strong side in my view has always been listing global incidents and accidents fast and fact minded, in their no nonsense, easy to read standard format. Now going into the accident-analysis or possibly even the comments branch might stretch it a bit too far it seems. That goes beyound what a small company can do.

I hope they keep their trustworthy core business as that made them almost unique.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 10:52
  #3467 (permalink)  
 
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So do I.

Isn't it a one man site?
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 12:41
  #3468 (permalink)  
 
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They're not all that. I can think of a couple of incidents I've witnessed/heard and nothing has appeared. And these were incidents which were a lot more serious than smoky ovens or strange smell incidents which seem a staple of AvHerald these days.

Then you've got the idiotic comments that accompany each post.

Simon did good when it came to the Wideroe near catastrophe which was brushed off by the crew and operator but it seems this Germanwings incident is not going to have the same outcome.

The facts are fairly solid. That is Andreas Lubitz took the plane down. As sad and as uncomfortable as it is to believe that one of us could do that, all of the evidence points to that being the chain of events.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 13:02
  #3469 (permalink)  
 
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We don't know how much pressure is put on sites like that to stay quiet, withdraw stories and such. It's big business lawyers you might interfere with all the time.
Under these conditions AVherald does quite a good job.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 13:11
  #3470 (permalink)  
 
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Yes indeed.

But don't think the Germanwings crash will have a different outcome.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 13:52
  #3471 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe those who are critical of the AVH in this subject should ask a different question.

I don't think what triggered that article was the question of guilt, but the question whether there were things in this investigation which deserve scrutiny because they are either wrong or at least do not live up to the standards of a normal accident investigation.

I remember when the accident happened that I was taken very much aback when the French held a press conference before even the FDR was found and declared they knew what happened. That is just not how ANY accident investigation is done, nor are the police or state lawyers the people to communicate this.

Think about it. This fact alone put a undue and uncalled for bias on the whole thing and probably some of the questions asked in the AVH article are more than justified. AVH are not the only ones asking that either.

My own take of this whole thing is that I would want to know if this investigation went wrong and if it did why and for what purpose. And I am quite certain that this is the purpose why AVH decided to publish this article. I think they are well aware of the risk of voicing their concerns but they have not been known to shut up when they thought something needed to be investigated. The Windroe incident proves that I think.

Whether the final outcome is the same or not is not the issue at all. The issue is, that there appear to be quite a bit of questions which need answering as to the nature and content of the final report.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 14:47
  #3472 (permalink)  
 
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The french state prosecutors went public early with some precise factual information. No complaint about that. There was a huge public interest given the unique circumstances that couldn't wait years for some proper investigation to finish everything.
I clearly prefer this over unofficial leaks bit by bit where you never know where they come from.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 15:33
  #3473 (permalink)  
 
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I was taken very much aback when the French held a press conference before even the FDR was found and declared they knew what happened. That is just not how ANY accident investigation is done, nor are the police or state lawyers the people to communicate this.
You may think and wish that but FWIW the French system often appoints an examining magistrate with serious powers immediately very very quickly after any fatal accidents, road, rail, sea or air, and they can and do sometimes talk to the press.

I saw the said press conference and whilst you are right, the some of the comments were surprising and yes, the FDR hadn't been found or read at that stage the conclusions that had already been drawn at that stage from ADS data seem to have stood the test of the subsequent investigation by the technical teams involved in the investigation over the next several months.

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Apr 2017 at 21:32.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 18:46
  #3474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AN2 Driver View Post
I don't think what triggered that article was the question of guilt, but the question whether there were things in this investigation which deserve scrutiny because they are either wrong or at least do not live up to the standards of a normal accident investigation.
With respect, Avherald isn't remotely qualified to make that judgement.

While it's easy to understand the reluctance of a grieving father to accept that his son was, in all probability, guilty of causing the pointless deaths of of 150 people, that reaction has no relevance whatsoever to the BEA investigation. Few now doubt that the "what" and the "how" has been established beyond reasonable doubt; the "why" is not for the investigation to determine.

There sadly seems to be a trend nowadays among otherwise competent aviation journalists to stray outside of their area of competency, and Avherald is fast becoming one of the worst offenders. Stick to facts, Simon, and leave the analysis to the professionals.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 19:25
  #3475 (permalink)  
 
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From the beginning I had some doubts. The results came too quick and were too wild. Yes, they are probable and can be correct. But before you charge somebody for murder of 150 souls, you should have more solid evidences. Not so many speculations and list of unanswered questions.
From my point of view, people like Simon are reasonable opposition, forcing investigators not to draw unfounded conclusions. Media are hungry for "strong" scenarios and Simon is a kind of counterbalance. Regardless he is true or wrong now.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 20:03
  #3476 (permalink)  
 
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You're missing the point.

Originally Posted by Karel_x View Post
The results came too quick and were too wild.
The BEA investigation was released on 16th March last year, nearly a year after the crash.

Yes, they are probable and can be correct.
That's why investigations use the term "probable cause". Any conclusions reached can be subsequently reviewed should any new evidence emerge that wasn't available to the investigators. I'm not aware of that having happened in this instance.

From my point of view, people like Simon are reasonable opposition, forcing investigators not to draw unfounded conclusions.
Are you suggesing that Simon's hubris extends to claiming that he is capable of influencing the conduct or findings of a safety investigation?
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 03:45
  #3477 (permalink)  
 
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Still don't understand why Lubitz used his oxy mask....
Where does this information come from?
Not from the final report, though.

Is it just a rumor?
CNN archive
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 08:10
  #3478 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry, my bad. Maybe it was in the preliminary report, anyhow I have to correct myself.

Thanks
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 08:28
  #3479 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Karel_x View Post
... The results came too quick and were too wild. Yes, they are probable and can be correct. But before you charge somebody for murder of 150 souls. ...
Hopefully I did not cut your quote out of the context.

I had listened twice to the prosecutors speeches, in the immediate aftermath there were actually only very few of them. To what he did say.

Not to how media explained his statements, or to what PPRuNe has shared about his alleged position. I found the official speeches / press releases fair and worded with extreme precision and proffesionalism. The press were much different, of course, and PPRuNe in trail of the latter.

What I mean to say now is that any theories suggesting foul play in the investigation - based on "pilot suspiciously accused early before the facts had been researched" - hold no water, specifically because the French Authorites exactly did NOT do that.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 4th Apr 2017 at 11:57.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 11:50
  #3480 (permalink)  
 
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I had listened twice to the prosecutors speeches, in the immediate aftermath there were actually only very few of them. To what he did say.

....... I found the official speeches / press releases fair and worded with extreme precision and proffesionalism.
Very much agree.
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