Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 14th Mar 2016, 13:10
  #3401 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,349
Whilst not wishing to sidetrack this debate, nor use it as a platform for criticism of "atypical employment", surely this is the opportunity EASA & the European Govts should use to put an end to zero hour contracts/bogus self employment etc.

The probability of someone , already depressive, self reporting a mental health issue , has got to be very low, if he understands that his income will thereafter be zero until he resumes flying duties again.

Turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas, and the elephant in the room that EASA et al will probably ignore is that the issue here is trying to make it less punitive for someone to seek help . . . . simples, give them the possibility to continue with their income protected (or at least a high percentage of it ) until the issue is resolved one way or another.

Inbetween zero-hour contracts & the brave new world of companies offering no (or inadequate ) loss of licence coverage, I don't see how we can realistically expect to increase self reporting.
captplaystation is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 16:05
  #3402 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,361
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
I can assure you that for someone suffering some sort of mental illness, the fact that your DR will be able to report you to your employer will just mean people won't seek help.
Yep. Maybe that's the objective: cost cutting of a different sort.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 17:10
  #3403 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 78
Posts: 764
ExSimGuy,

The problem is that the Brexit advocates never specify the difference between an EU Directive and an EU Regulation. There are relatively few Regulations. And, as Heathrow Harry has pointed out, the European Court of Human Rights is not an EU body at all. I do wish the popular press would be a lot more factual about EU processes.

A Directive is a legal act of the European Union, which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result.

A Regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously.
Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 18:27
  #3404 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Durham
Age: 58
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Yeah because that would have completely nullified the sounds of the screams in the cabin and the frantic shouting and hammering of the captain on the flightdeck door. Don't make excuses for him, anyone who is able to ignore that and carry out such an act is a psychopath. He may have had depression but a clear lack of empathy and remorse makes him a psychopath and so does carrying out mass murder. Depressed people don't tend to take 150 innocent people with them.
The term psychopath has a specific meaning and Lubitz doesnt fit it. A sociopath generally is not a criminal. Many successful businessmen are sociopathic. They have no qualms about ruining lives in a different way.

Not making excuses, but as I have dealt with many suicidal people I just want to introduce into the discussion how distorted the thinking can be. It may have been in his mind that "My life is not worth living, so what makes the life of anyone on board worth living?" Another scenario is that he was just comfortable in his little office at the front of the aircraft and took the aircraft into the mountains perceiving nothing but what was going on in his mind.

Depression has a very large spectrum, possibly one of the biggest catch-all diagnoses. It can range from simple reactive depression where the sleep is disturbed to suicidal and what would be called murderous intentions. Sometimes it depends on your job or what you are familiar with. If its firearms you may go on a killing spree. Depressives dont generally kill 150 but have certainly been known to kill as many as they thought or had the physical capability to do so. Women with post-natal depression sometimes kill their own children. They are not psychopaths but ill.
mercurydancer is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 20:40
  #3405 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,510
When do the supposed/perceived rights of the individual over-ride the established rights of the many? Does not a doctor, as well as having a 'duty of care' to his patient, also have 'duty of care' to society in general. The medical oath is to save life. Do the laws of privacy over-ride one's scariness about a patient's future actions?
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 21:13
  #3406 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,361
Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
When do the supposed/perceived rights of the individual over-ride the established rights of the many? Does not a doctor, as well as having a 'duty of care' to his patient, also have 'duty of care' to society in general. The medical oath is to save life. Do the laws of privacy over-ride one's scariness about a patient's future actions?
Please don't ask doctors to play God. The ones who play it that way are enough of a nuisance already.


As for the rest (most doctors) you are asking them to be able to predict with a level of accuracy that the mind and emotional sciences simply can't handle.. Were it that good, suicide would have been cured long, long ago.


If the doctor to patient relationship isn't confidential, the patients will be less likely to share things with a doctor. That's good for nobody, neither the patient nor the public.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 21:33
  #3407 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 37
Here is the final report:

https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyd...0125.en-LR.pdf
flighttest-engineer is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2016, 21:59
  #3408 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: 43N
Posts: 182
I have searched the final report several times.

Apparently the Captain or flight attendants never inputted the emergency access code - why?

How is it possible to change the selected altitude from 38,000 to 100' in one second?

Does German Wings altitude setting SOP make use the 1000' or 100' selection on the FCU?

Would it not take 4-5 twists of the altitude selector to go from 38000 to 100' even if the 1000' selection was used because one would have to switch to the 100' mode to input 100' in selected altitude?
CaptainMongo is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 06:40
  #3409 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,391
Apparently the Captain or flight attendants never inputted the emergency access code - why?
I can't see where the report states that. Reference?

How is it possible to change the selected altitude from 38,000 to 100' in one second?
I'm obviously missing something subtle.. from what I've seen when jumpseating on a 'bus I'd have thought you'd probably do it the same way you do on a Boeing MCP, i.e. turn the knob quickly...

Last edited by wiggy; 15th Mar 2016 at 07:59.
wiggy is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 13:51
  #3410 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,085
page 9

"He kept the cockpit door locked during the descent, despite requests
for access made via the keypad and the cabin interphone."

I read that as they entered the Emergency code but he jsut switched it to LOCK every time thus overriding the keyboard
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 14:37
  #3411 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: 43N
Posts: 182
Page 36:

"Note: The buzzer recorded at 09 h 34 min 31 most probably corresponded to a routine access request because it is the first access request following the Captain's departure from the cockpit and because the operator's normal practice calls for trying the normal access code before dialling the emergency access code. Therefore, the possibility that it corresponds to an emergency access request cancelled after 980 ms by an action on the toggle switch is considered to be extremely remote."

From what I read all requests for access were via the routine (normal) method. The emergency access method was never attempted. If it were there would be additional sounds recorded emanating from the door specific loud speaker. Also considering the time frame he would have needed to select lock only once and all subsequent requests for access (routine or emergency) would have been muted.

I fly the Bus, I can spin the selected altitude knob and maybe go from 38,000 to 22,000 then have to spin again and most likely one more time to get to 1000 and then reset it to the 100' range to get to 100' feet. So 3-5 spins - I don't think I could do that in a second - is it a big deal ofcourse not - it just stood out to me.
CaptainMongo is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 14:50
  #3412 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,391
I did see that comment but as I read that it seems to only refer to that particular singular (and seemingly first) request for access. Even in that comment they say can't even definitively rule out that it wasn't an attempt at emergency access, just that it was extremely unlikely because of SOPs. That in turn might perhaps lead to the conclusion that the investigators had no way from the audio data of ever telling which "code" was used for entry.

Maybe it's more clear in the original French langage version.

(Edit to add:spent too long typing - I appreciate you maybe can't answer but is the buzzer sound for normal access the same as the buzzer for emergency access?)

As for the comments about the " Alt knob" on the MCP Thanks for your comments, I wonder if the "one second" is plus or minus. I'm not planning to try it but you could certainly wind most Boeing MCP alt selectors down to 100' in not much more than a second.
wiggy is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 15:05
  #3413 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,229
RAT 5:
When do the supposed/perceived rights of the individual over-ride the established rights of the many? Does not a doctor, as well as having a 'duty of care' to his patient, also have 'duty of care' to society in general. The medical oath is to save life. Do the laws of privacy over-ride one's scariness about a patient's future actions?
I can speak to the duties of a psychiatrist in the United States. First and foremost, psychiatrist are afforded more protection by law than other medical doctors or than other types of mental health practitioners.

Psychiatrists cannot disclose fantasies that a patient may have. Nor can the psychiatrist disclose past crimes the patient may have confessed. But, if the patient makes a credible threat to commit a crime then the psychiatrist is required by law to report that specific threat to law enforcement.
aterpster is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 16:17
  #3414 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,954
But, if the patient makes a credible threat to commit a crime then the psychiatrist is required by law to report that specific threat to law enforcement.
And that part is not different in Germany. However, it has to be very credible, otherwise the psychiatrist will be open to litigation.
Denti is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 16:53
  #3415 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Liverpool UK
Age: 67
Posts: 5
I know this is a professional pilot forum but bear with me. Just before Christmas 2014 a truck crashed into a crown of Christmas shoppers in Glasgow, Scotland killing 6 and injuring 15. Turned out the driver was suffering blackouts and despite being on medication did not till his employers for fear of loosing his job.
This is a global multi-industry problem it impacts aircrew, train drivers, coach drivers, passenger ship crew and probably a lot of people in other industries.
1 in 4 people will suffer a mental health issue at some stage (not all suicidal) and because the problem is global, it affects all cultures and nationalities, its no good one country bringing in regulations if nobody else follows suite.
So you have to design a system that will not stop the majority of people who now seek help, keeping quiet for fear of their jobs, and it being acceptable to all cultures and nationalities.

We need to change the perception of mental health issues, to employers, employees, governments and regulatory authorities on a global scale.

That is a very very big task, and persoally I cannot see it happening any time soon.

Hope I am wrong and somebody wiser than me comes up with a workable solution quickly.
Mainsail is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 17:54
  #3416 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: 43N
Posts: 182
When the emergency access code is entered the cockpit buzzer sounds continuously for a period of time (company specific but probably 10-30 seconds) in the cockpit. During this period of time the door remains locked. The cockpit occupant can select deny on the cockpit door switch thus denying entry. If deny is selected, the door remains locked. Any further inputs on the cockpit access panel are ignored and the buzzer inhibited for a period of time (company specific but probably 10-20 minutes) If nothing is selected the cockpit door will unlatch for a very short period of time allowing entry.
CaptainMongo is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 18:08
  #3417 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Alba
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I know this is a professional pilot forum but bear with me. Just before Christmas 2014 a truck crashed into a crown of Christmas shoppers in Glasgow, Scotland killing 6 and injuring 15. Turned out the driver was suffering blackouts and despite being on medication did not till his employers for fear of loosing his job.
This is a global multi-industry problem it impacts aircrew, train drivers, coach drivers, passenger ship crew and probably a lot of people in other industries.
The only way round this I can see is some kind of loss of license insurance. It would have to be mandatory, and built into employment contracts. People with financial commitments are just not going to admit health problems that will end their career without an adequate and mandatory safety net.
jaytee54 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 18:32
  #3418 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,114
Even that only addresses the financial aspects. Without a cultural acceptance, there's still the "X couldn't hack it, he must be weak" etc stigma. How many people who suffer "burnout" and admit it, feel trusted again, or ARE trusted again? "We can't give Y this challenging task, you know what can happen (wink, wink)" It's not even necessarily malicious, the person saying that likely thinks they are somehow "protecting" the person.

Money is of course important, but not by any means the whole story.
Mad (Flt) Scientist is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 20:14
  #3419 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kiwiland
Posts: 543
In the UK the General Medical Council places a requirement on doctors to over ride individual patient confidentiality if the risk to society or others is greater. The obvious one is an absolute requirement to report a stabbing, even though some are not the result of crime.

The issues are

a some countries have privacy laws and dont have a GMC

b doctors are busy and dont always know exactly what a patient does

The flip side of all this is that pilots might not seek help for either physical or mental health issues, exacerbating as opposed to solving the problem.
Radgirl is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2016, 23:07
  #3420 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Durham
Age: 58
Posts: 182
In essence the mental health aspect of the responsibilities of the healthcare professionals is obvious. If Lubitz had said he had plans to crash his aircraft into a mountain then yes the professional had to do something about it.

I dont think in actuality it would have been that clear, even with hindsight. The normal questions asked tend to follow a formula. Are you feeling suicidal? That is a yes or no question. This is followed if the positive is given, Do you have any plans? If its a no then whatever the suspicions of the medics then they are not on firm ground to do much.
mercurydancer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.