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TransAsia in the water?

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TransAsia in the water?

Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:06
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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Instead of the Authorities going mad and chopping everyone in the skill test, why not see the crews are trained in the first instance? However, try as we may we will never eliminate human error, never. We all now have a fair idea what happened. The question is why?? Basics not being addressed??
There is obviously a serious trend developing in, what appears to be, inadequacies of pilot training - in all parts of the World.

This can't be helped by PTF schemes and the like which run in opposition to historic pilot training philosophies.

The 700 hour CPL/IR route used to ensure that emergencies were practiced and practiced again in order for budding airline pilots to hone their skills and develop that all important 'instinct' for flying - either through the instructor or air taxi route, for example.

I had 1000 hours before I started my first commercial job - not a minimum 200 or so hours with no experience outside the flight training school/academy computer-based simulated environment.

The old standards were there for a purpose - and the erosion of flying experience required to gain licences and obtain employment over the past 20 years or so may be coming back to haunt the industry?

Computers are fine - but it is the pilot who should have the knowledge, qualifications and experience to FLY the aeroplane.

It seems that commercial pressures and operational requirements caused by an ever expanding, rapidly developing aviation industry are leaving the human factors behind.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:24
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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flying parrot fashion..versus flying with the wing

P2F influence development of parrot pilots ...Old school rigournomics develop wings in the pants skills. You can teach monkey SOP but can monkey think through them and have the sense to deviate from them when required..in order to save the day?
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:31
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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The pilots screwed the pooch, period. This is BASIC multi-engine flying.

I am not sure how many V1 cuts, V2 cuts I have done in the sim and I personally have lost in the course of a 28 year career lost 5 engines, 4 were as single pilot. Its basic stuff.

low experience; captain 42 years old and 4500hrs? not much flying per year. I had that much time in my first 5 years and was only 25. the F/O...16,000 hours...hmmm...a 16,000 hour F/O..why was HE not a Captain? Seniority? perhaps, perhaps he was a weak pilot and could not upgrade.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:32
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There is obviously a serious trend developing in, what appears to be, inadequacies of pilot training - in all parts of the World.

This can't be helped by PTF schemes and the like which run in opposition to historic pilot training philosophies.
Amen! I have been stating that for years now. The situation is appalling.
Asiana, Air France, TransAsia, you name it....... It is not only the PTF, but generally the speedy careers that scare. No experience and training depth, just cheap and reduced to the bone syllaby and speedy benedictions from corrupt regulators. The Ab Initio careers popping up all along the rising air-travel countries are a perfect negative example. From zero to hero with the local passport, the pushing pride of the nation and some blind eyes of regulators and postholders of training and fleet.

No aftermath training can compensate for jumping steps, the best safety margin is genuine experience. You have the crying negative-example displaying on youtube now. QED!!!!!!
But i guess it will be rapidly forgotten or oversampled by the next catastrophe the all the responsible jerks will cynically call "unbelievable and unforeseeable" .

In the US congress at least there was a wake-up call regarding training, remuneration and fatiguing contracts. At least something has been done there, but they still have a horde of "Asianas" flying through their territory ......... and nothing is done due to their own "authority" on their airmen.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:44
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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TAIPEI: Taiwan's TransAsia Airways said Friday all its 71 ATR pilots will have to take a flight skills test following its second deadly accident in seven months.
Unfortunately this is 'too little, too late'.

The are a number of questions that need to be raised about this operator after the second deadly accident in 9 months.

The first needs to be the regulator who has clearly lost regulatory oversight, following the first fatal crash several months before. Taiwan has suffered with a military style management in the airlines and I believe that the regulator themselves is suffering from the same syndrome.

Military management mixed with asian culture demonstrates significant changes are required.

Below is courtesy of wikipedia.

Accidents and incidents[edit]
On 30 January 1995, an ATR 72-200 of TransAsia Airways crashed into a hillside during flight from Penghu to Taipei. Four crew members died.[12]
On 6 January 1996, a man, disappointed with domestic political and social developments in Taiwan, hijacked TransAsia Airways flight 529, an Airbus A321-131, en route to Tainan. He gave a note to one of the flight attendants, claiming to have a bomb. He demanded that the plane be flown to Fujian Province, China. The hijacker agreed to the pilot's suggestion to land in Tainan for refueling and was arrested upon landing.[13]
On December 21, 2002, TransAsia Airways cargo flight 791, an ATR 72-200, crashed due to icing, during a flight from Taipei to Macau. Both crew members died. The plane encountered severe icing conditions beyond the icing certification envelope of the aircraft and crashed into sea 17 km southwest of Makung city. The Aviation Safety Council of Taiwan investigation found that the crash was caused by ice accumulation around the plane's major components, resulting in the aircraft's loss of control. The investigation identified that flight crew did not respond to the severe icing conditions with the appropriate alert situation awareness and did not take the necessary actions.[14]
On March 21, 2003, TransAsia Airways flight 543, an Airbus A321 (B-22603) collided with a truck upon landing at Tainan Airport at the end of a flight from Taipei Songshan Airport. The truck trespassed the runway without noticing the incoming plane. None of the 175 passengers and crew died or were injured but the two people inside the truck were injured in the collision. The aircraft was damaged severely in the accident and was written off.[15]
On 18 October 2004, TransAsia Airways flight 536, an Airbus A320-232 (B-22310), rolled off the runway during landing 321 feet from the end of runway 10 at Taipei Songshan Airport, ending up with the nosegear in a ditch. According to the records in the Technical Log Book of the aircraft, the number 2 engine thrust reverser system malfunctioned and was transferred to deferred defect (DD) item and the thrust reverser was deactivated in accordance with the procedures in the Minimum Equipment List.[16]
On July 19, 2005, TransAsia Airways Flight 028, an ATR72-212A (B-22805), landed at Taipei Songshan Airport. As the aircraft taxied on Taxiway CC after landing, it made an early right turn onto a service road. The aircraft’s right wing hit a flood light pole and stopped. Two pilots, 2 cabin attendants and 24 passengers were on board. One cabin crew encountered minor injury. The front spar of the right wing of the aircraft was damaged.[17]
On July 23, 2014, TransAsia Airways Flight 222, an ATR 72-500 (B-22810) carrying 54 passengers and 4 crew members from Kaohsiung to Magong crashed[18] near Magong Airport on Penghu Island. 47 people were confirmed dead while at least 7 of the 11 survivors were seriously injured. Some reports suggest there were also 5 casualties on the ground when the plane impacted residential buildings.[19]
On February 4, 2015, TransAsia Airways Flight 235, an ATR 72-600 (B-22816), had 58 people aboard when it lost control just after takeoff and crashed at 10:56 AM local time into the Keelung River near Taipei. Of the 58, there were 51 adults, two children and five crew members. Ten people have been rescued and dozens more are trapped, and rescuers are trying to reach them. 39 are confirmed dead.[20][21]
When do you acknowledge there is a systemic problem?
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:44
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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I never understood why the 700 hour CPL / IR route was discontinued. 700 hours doesn't sound a lot but that was 700 hours of real stick and rudder time - PPL instructing, para dropping, glider tugging; loads of take offs and landings, all sorts of 'situations' to deal with and no automatics. An ideal 'basic flying' grounding on which to build a professional skill profile.

Highly unlikely someone with that background would stall an aeroplane all the way into the ground (Buffalo, AF447, and now this one).
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:49
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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One training question - Instructors including those in the simulator usually pull the critical engine. Could this lead to a "trained monkey" reaction of automatically carrying out the actions for that engine when it goes wrong in reality.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 12:50
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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Hero

He was called a hero by the mayor for avoiding the buildings.

For that, he is.

He may ultimately run out of airspeed and altitude, but not ideas.

The avoidance of the built up area, and heading towards the river, was clearly intentional.

In the face of all his challenges, and we don't know yet if he brought them upon himself, he still had presence of mind.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:00
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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"TAIPEI: Taiwan's TransAsia Airways said Friday all its 71 ATR pilots will have to take a flight skills test following its second deadly accident in seven months. "

I see I have had a comment pulled by the Moderators, and would like to explain why I wrote what I did.

My response to the above news was "They are Chinese"

I suspect this was taken to be racist, It was not - I have worked for a Chinese State owned Enterprise for the past 18 years and my comment was a comment on the management style of Chinese businesses. I meant that this typical response should not be taken as an indication that there is anything generically wrong with this airline's flight deck staff. It is just the default reaction of management in a Chinese company - a quick prescriptive "solution" imposed "top down".

"Long divided, the Empire must unite. Long united, the Empire must divide. So it has ever been" - Opening sentences of the San Guo,三国志 a classic novel written in the 14th century...
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:04
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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Shaggy Sheep Driver,

what a delightfully quaint but well founded idea . . . . FWIW I am bloody glad I came through the Instructor route. Having gone for my APTPL I had 1500hrs of scaring myself in Pipers & Cessnas before I got my hands on anything bigger. I have had cause many times to be thankful for that progression.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:07
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To be fair I don't actually think getting all the pilots to go through a skills test with external examiners is neither unfair or a over reaction.

I have seen quite a few auld boys get signed off by there mates who were well known for poor performance followed by the next week by reaming out and poor grading of some one that wasn't in the auld boys club but known as a good operator by the same TRE.

If you speak to the sim partners you hear of all sorts of stupidity not even getting mentioned in the de-brief.

Its not just an Asian problem it happens in Europe as well.

Last edited by mad_jock; 7th Feb 2015 at 13:19.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:48
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@ Rusco...

low experience; captain 42 years old and 4500hrs? not much flying per year. I had that much time in my first 5 years and was only 25. the F/O...16,000 hours...hmmm...a 16,000 hour F/O..why was HE not a Captain? Seniority? perhaps, perhaps he was a weak pilot and could not upgrade.
Please get your facts right...

Yes the captain in the left seat had 4500 hrs but considering some pilots start flying these types and even bigger types with less than 300 hrs what can you expect.

Now the co-pilot was really a captain, so really a co-captain with close to 7000 hrs. He was called on one of his days "OFF" to replace the assigned co-pilot who could not fly that day (according to a post on here).

The third pilot sitting in the jump seat was a check pilot, check airman or whatever you want to call him and he's the one with 16,000 hrs.

Why that check pilot was onboard is unknown at this time.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:52
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think that we are far enough along with this investigation to simply castigate the pilots for this.

Yes, on the surface it does appear they shutdown the wrong engine

but for what reason ??

Why shut anything down to the point where it has to be restarted? Why not just cycle something for a few seconds to confirm that it's still working?

I await the teardown of both engines and a full analysis of their performance capabilities before judging the pilots actions.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 13:55
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The FO I read was a Captain on holiday who got called into cover some sectors.

Which was the reason why I made the comment that jumping into the RHS when you haven't flown in it for a while can be a bit of a sod.

I also have it in my mind that it could be the reason for the engine selection mistake as number one will normal be next to his leg and from the RHS its the one on the other side.

I have sneaky feeling the 16k guy was an authority flight ops inspector type. More than likely ex fast jet and only ever flown heavy's if the ones in the middle east are anything go by that inspect TP's.

To be fair the Guy in the ME freely admitted he didn't have a clue how these fan jobs worked and took an active interest asking us questions and getting to explain things. In fact it was more of check than we would have had in the UK as I was getting bombarded with prop theory type questions.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 14:01
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Unless he is used to flying from the RH seat.

Some captains are line indoc or training captains and get to fly in the RH seat on several occasions.

In our operation (not airline) we are all left seat and right seat qualified and train to fly from the right hand seat in the sim in fact it is mandatory.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 14:14
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I am one of those types. And I know for myself if I haven't flown in the RHS for a few weeks its takes a few sectors for the hands to know where they are going with the same instinctiveness as I would in the LHS.

Its the same going back to the LHS after a couple of weeks command training.

In fact I used to fly in the RHS more regularly when we were aloud to do line checks flying the line and not in the jump seat. These days its only really command training and a quick V1 cut and go around and land in a visual circuit tagged onto the OPC/LPC.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 14:26
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cutting the wrong engine, and you are called a hero.. this world walks on head.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 14:32
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@ Greenlights...

What is the problem?
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 15:02
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Originally Posted by Longtimer
In a statement, the airline said "71 pilots on its fleet of 10 ATR planes will be required to do a test by the Civil Aeronautics Administration and a professional unit to make sure they are all qualified on their jobs."
Originally Posted by training wheels
Errm, excuse me, but shouldn't that have been done before they were employed by the airline? A bit too late once they're on the line to find later that they're not "qualified on their jobs".
Well, you could say the same thing about annual/semi-annual checking: "No sense giving regular checkrides, should hvae been done before they were hired."

And it makes exactly the same amount of sense.
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Old 7th Feb 2015, 15:36
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They will have been checked by company examiners. Looks like they are getting it again on a sim thats rudder pedals work with authority examiners.

And you never know it could be because of this thread and the poster that said the sim was broken for 6 months but still being used.
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