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TransAsia in the water?

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TransAsia in the water?

Old 5th Feb 2015, 07:49
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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But if anyone of you do the research you will find that it is fact that the sim was still operating with inoperative rudder pedals for up to 4-6 weeks. ATR were still allowing companies to use it in this condition
Yes the SIM in Singapore operating for about 2 weeks without rudder pedals on the Captains side not 4-6 like you say. You are correct in saying many companies continued to train and check their crews in it, all apart from the Kiwi and Ozzy companies that refused. It is completely at the airlines and TRE/TRIs descretion if they want to continue training in a faulty product. Read into that what you will!
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 07:51
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bloom
Where do I start? ...
They pissed it all away ...
The crew mismanaged a manageable incident. They "screwed the pooch".
With all the assumptions and speculation in your post, and the condemnation of the crew, maybe you just lobby to replace all accident investigation operations with your superior ability and random deductive skills

Or, better still, make some considered observations without coming across as a thoughtless and arrogant prat by drawing such absolute and as yet unfounded conclusions.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 07:58
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of questions from a dumb F$%, and they are not to imply in anyway this is whats happening, just technicality and enlightenment.

Roll rate, yes we know it can't roll that quickly commanded. But what is the roll rate with one engine out near stall maybe with some rudder kicked in?

Glide distance, yes pilots know the drill, optimum glide distance, too fast or too slow you fall short. But does that not imply a speed that the aircraft is under some sort of reasonable control, even up to landing. Not maybe opps we have some power, now we don't. Or the thing is flying when it really shouldn't be at the moment speed.

Regardless of the theory, controlled flight into high rises or houses may make you try for the illogical.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:03
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of speculation here just like the Air Asia thread. We all would like answers but it may be optimal to hear the outcome of the investigation(s)....before coming up with definitive conclusions based on assumptions.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:14
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The 3 cockpit crew

Was this likly a line training flight.One of the crew members had iover 16k hours and the other 2 had 6.9k and 4.5k respectively. This was no lack of experience scenario unless all 3 were low hours on type.Giving them all the benfiit of the doubt they probably did all thta was instinctly and procedurally possible to minimise damage. That last minute high bank might have been to avoid clipping the structures on the road across theior flight path with the intent of ditching into the river?Had they not clipped that car the plane might not have hit the road bank?I wish the crew are alive to tell the story in hindsight...but are they?Cockpit was submerged for a long time and they must have been strapped and probably might have been electrocuted with all the electrical and electronic bays behind their backs.

Any news of the recovery of the 3 cockpit crew?
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:23
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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If it was a "glide" as a lot are saying then it was done incorrectly. (As per QRH/FCOM)

I don't pretend to know the weight of the aircraft involved but the target speed for a glide in an ATR is VmHB. If the info out there is correct and its maximum speed was only 113Kts then it was a long way from the optimum glide speed especially at a flap zero configuration. At 80 odd knots with flap zero that airframe was stalled as it went in.

What is extremely obviously to those with experience on type is that the aircraft had an issue with an engine that was either managed incorrectly by the crew (I really hope not) or was completely unmanageable.

Last edited by BO0M; 5th Feb 2015 at 08:25. Reason: Auto correct issues
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:30
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Local-ish newspaper reporting that one family switched seats prior to take-off as they were unhappy about engine noise from port engine:

Together with the child's mother, the family had switched seats on the plane "out of a hunch" that saved their lives, the United Daily News said.
"The family originally sat in the heavily damaged left side but Lin Ming-wei felt uneasy after he heard noises before taking-off and requested to switch seats," the report quoted Dai Bi-chin, a friend of the family, as saying after visiting them in hospital.

From
TransAsia pilot hailed as a hero for avoiding populated areas - Regional | The Star Online
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:36
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Oh BO0M......lets not all get too smart here...
As has been mentioned,we do not have all the facts yet,to confirm double engine failure.
However, we are not talking about perfect conditions with an optimum approach angle and speed to the water surface..Is it not apparent to you that his choice of touchdown/crash point may well have been compromised!..just a little!

.."Done incorrectly"......please!

BTW..have my "Silver C"... And the Lasham Plate!
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:38
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I flew on B-22816 last year - odd vibrations

I'm a longtime reader and finally have something to contribute. I live in Taiwan and fly back and forth between Hualien Taiwan and Taipei almost weekly. Transasia is the only carrier that services our town and really the only domestic carrier aside from a few Mandarin airlines connection flights.

I just checked my photos and I flew on this EXACT plane last year on July 24th from Songshan airport. The flight really stood out to me because the plane was very new with different lighting and interior finishes than the rest of their ATR-72 fleet.

This plane had the oddest vibration in the engine. I normally sit up in seat 2D, ahead of the props since noise is lower. That wasn't the case on this plane. When they started the engine the vibration was intense up front and continually rattled the emergency exit door. The flight itself was uneventful. I've flown on this type over 50 times and this one was unusual. I usually enjoy flying on a new aircraft, but not in this case. Here is a photo from boarding that night on the tarmac. I'm now seriously considering taking the train or driving until TransAsia gets their issues sorted out. Sadly tour-bus and truck filled mountain roads here are pretty dangerous.


Last edited by hualien; 5th Feb 2015 at 13:47.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:42
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Stretching the glide....undershooting. Very little time to do the right thing, but the BA777 captain on final approach to LHR a few years back, the copilot being PF, and the engines declining to provide power when asked....the captain retracted a stage of flap, they scraped over the fence and all survived.

That was a power failure on approach. Much more difficult if you are faced with EFAT. Too many problems - how to improve the performance of your aircraft which has suddenly turned into a very unhappy glider. No flaps to put away. A useless windmill on one wing at least, acting as asymetrical airbrake. Poor choice of landing areas immediately ahead. No time to restart an engine. They did very well to make it to the river.

When undershooting in a simple glider, with no other problems, you have to lower the nose to INCREASE your speed over the ground, and if done properly this may get you over the hedge. The worst thing to do would be to raise the nose to clear obstacles.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:47
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Well the other TP drivers will have seen the coming in of heavy jet guys to regional TP due to lifestyle reasons.

Sometimes its not pretty.

Quite a few don't make it past type rating.

So the linetraining theory may have some weight.

Also nobody has said where that data has come from. It maybe that its ground speed not airspeed. The wind on the day was about 10 knots.

Also is there a noise abatement procedure with a V2+10 off that runway?

I must admit my speed control is very poor when we are meant to do them. My normal 0-5knts tolerance can get as bad as +40. And any excuse such as a bird being seen 24 hours before departure means I can't do it due flight safety reasons.

Never flown a jet, and never had to do one for real, but in the sim it gets very acrobatic in a tp when you get an engine fail at that speed and gear up. You have to instantly drop the nose from 20 degrees nose up down to 9 up Any delay and your speed is below v2. You have to set the attitude before the asi starts moving. You deep into the dirty side of the drag curve.

If they have been doing a v2 + 10 the departed i salute you I more than likely couldn't have done any better if I hadn't cheated with poor speed control.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:49
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Oh BO0M......lets not all get too smart here...
As has been mentioned,we do not have all the facts yet,to confirm double engine failure.
However, we are not talking about perfect conditions with an optimum approach angle and speed to the water surface..Is it not apparent to you that his choice of touchdown/crash point may well have been compromised!..just a little!

.."Done incorrectly"......please!
Cmon Yaw I think you have read to much into what I'm trying to say. I've sqid over and over we don't know the facts!

The point I was trying to get across is that a double engine flame out and glide is highly unlikely! There isn't an ATR pilot out there worth his/her salt that doesn't know VmHB and feathered props are your life in such an event. Stretching the glide can only be achieved with Flap 15 and allowing the VmHB to reduce (and let's face it it's not really stretching it).

Like I said stating some facts to hopefully make people aware a double flame out/glide this was not.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:56
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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previous engine trouble

Is there any documented evidence of previous left engine trouble and what was the nature of that trouble that needed fixing?
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 08:58
  #154 (permalink)  
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Does anyone know what the nature of the 'technical issues' were that resulted in both engines being replaced in Macau on the delivery flight last April,as alleged in the following article ?

Taiwan pilot hailed a hero for pulling plane clear of buildings - World | The Star Online

nnnnn
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Last edited by TWT; 5th Feb 2015 at 09:11.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:27
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Any news of the recovery of the 3 cockpit crew?
Although not reported in the media, while I was watching the recovery of the front cockpit section there was a pause when two stretchers were taken to the area and taken away carrying two bundles wrapped in white cloth.

I don't know the contents of the bundles.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:40
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Watching the events of getting the aircraft out of the water, it has to be observed that the local authorities really did a well organised job and achieved the result pretty quickly.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:43
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Yes the -600 does have auto rudder trim, which is active as long as the Yaw Damper is engaged, it will hold in the event of an engine failure, even though I have only tried it in the simulator.

Without the yaw damper engaged it just a matter of correcting the yaw with the rudder pedals, and then engaging the yaw damper, which will then trim out any rudder force required.

The -600 is very easy to handle single engine, much easier that for example the -500.

However there is an risk of "lesser" pilots becoming reliant on this system for handling SE flight, and forgetting the basics.
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:43
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Mayday call issued before deadly crash into river in Taipei | Daily Mail Online

Does anyone else see a feathered prop hub?
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:44
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The Daily Telegraph says the captain had complained about the left engine...

"The latest so far is the claims that the captain, Liao Jiangzhong, complained of “engine abnormalities” and requested an urgent inspection of the plane shortly before its final take-off but was rebuffed.

Liao Jiangzhong, the plane’s former air force pilot, is among 32 people so far confirmed to have died when the aircraft crashed into a river shortly after taking off from Taipei’s Songshan airport on Wednesday morning.

An unnamed “whistleblower” told Taiwan’s Liberty Times newspaper that Mr Liao requested a thorough inspection of the plane after noticing “engine abnormalities” during its previous flight.

The pilot registered the problem on a flight log, the newspaper added."


TransAsia plane crash: Pilot complained of ?engine abnormality? before take-off - Telegraph
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Old 5th Feb 2015, 09:49
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Not a "spin". A spin would need altitude.
It's not a developed spin (there wasn't the altitude for that) but is sure looks like an incipient spin to me (been there hundreds of times, but at a safe altitude). The aircraft is obviously semi-stalled at least just before the roll-off to the left, nose high with a high rate of descent, very high alpha. Then the left wing dropped as the bottom fell out of it.

What we don't know is why it got into that situation.

If it's true the airline happily used a sim with inop rudder pedals then that says a lot about standards.

Agree that the aeroplane at high alpha as this one was would have come down faster than it would at best glide. But as someone said, the attitude may have been forced on the pilots by having to avoid hitting a building, by sacrificing speed for height. Though from what we can see in videos there are no buildings protruding into the aircraft's flight path that would cause that - maybe just involuntary desire to 'pull back to keep it in the air 'till the river?'
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