Saudi B747 in Manila
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Saudi B747 in Manila
ILA, 5 June — A Saudi Arabian Airlines plane overshot a runway of the Manila airport yesterday, but did not cause injuries or damages.
Edgardo Manda, general manager of Ninoy Aquino International Airport, said the Boeing 747-200, which came from Riyadh with 382 passengers and 19 crew members on board, encountered "hydraulic problems" while landing.
The aircraft’s nose gear plowed into a grassy area of the runway, after it swerved to the right when the pilot lost control. "The pilot suffered a steering problem upon landing, resulting to the swerving, which forced him to apply sudden braking action," an airport statement said.
The plane was immediately removed from the runway to avoid disrupting operations at the busy airport, it added.
Edgardo Manda, general manager of Ninoy Aquino International Airport, said the Boeing 747-200, which came from Riyadh with 382 passengers and 19 crew members on board, encountered "hydraulic problems" while landing.
The aircraft’s nose gear plowed into a grassy area of the runway, after it swerved to the right when the pilot lost control. "The pilot suffered a steering problem upon landing, resulting to the swerving, which forced him to apply sudden braking action," an airport statement said.
The plane was immediately removed from the runway to avoid disrupting operations at the busy airport, it added.
Body Gear Steering problem
This incident is at least the 2nd case of an uncommanded body gear steering actuator.
The first case (different airline approx one month ago) resulted in the left body gear giving a full right turn at around 50 knots on landing. The PF was able to keep the airplane on the runway by applying maximum braking, however the nose wheel ended up just off the runway, but fortunately on a taxiway.
I believe the manufacturer is looking at a particular batch of body gear actuators.
The first case (different airline approx one month ago) resulted in the left body gear giving a full right turn at around 50 knots on landing. The PF was able to keep the airplane on the runway by applying maximum braking, however the nose wheel ended up just off the runway, but fortunately on a taxiway.
I believe the manufacturer is looking at a particular batch of body gear actuators.
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I was there yesterday and asked a few questions and the excuse I think is just that. I was told they simply tried to exit at excessive speed and simply lost it. The skid marks and the location seem to bear that out.
have a nice day
have a nice day
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Rabbit - an uncommanded body gear steering actuator isn't quite the same as trying to exit at excessive speed and 'losing' it!
One is a mechanical failure and the other pilot error.
A B747 can exit on a high speed turn-off, quite comfortably, at 45Knots, (reducing).
One is a mechanical failure and the other pilot error.
A B747 can exit on a high speed turn-off, quite comfortably, at 45Knots, (reducing).
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"Some people should not fly, look at their record, and the list of excuses continues, but never pilot error."
Questions derived from your statement:
1. 'Who' should not fly?
2. Look at whose record? Saudia's? Over the last 20 years or so, not the best, but definately not the worst. In fact, quite good. Standards of training are quite high, ask those who know.
3. "list of excuses?" Just what the hell are you implying? Saudia pilots, Saudi as well as non-Saudis, have paid for errors with their careers (1 strike & yur OUT!), as opposed to other 'professionals' (doctors, lawyers, etc, whose mistakes are covered up, or explained away). Saudia has its faults, as do all airlines, but its record does not justify the claim of 'whitewash' of 'Pilot Error'. Put up, or SHUT UP; I challenge you to justify your claims of inapporpriate 'excuses', covering up 'Pilot Error'.
Let's wait for results of the investigation.
Questions derived from your statement:
1. 'Who' should not fly?
2. Look at whose record? Saudia's? Over the last 20 years or so, not the best, but definately not the worst. In fact, quite good. Standards of training are quite high, ask those who know.
3. "list of excuses?" Just what the hell are you implying? Saudia pilots, Saudi as well as non-Saudis, have paid for errors with their careers (1 strike & yur OUT!), as opposed to other 'professionals' (doctors, lawyers, etc, whose mistakes are covered up, or explained away). Saudia has its faults, as do all airlines, but its record does not justify the claim of 'whitewash' of 'Pilot Error'. Put up, or SHUT UP; I challenge you to justify your claims of inapporpriate 'excuses', covering up 'Pilot Error'.
Let's wait for results of the investigation.
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Can't recall any cases of un-commanded body steering with the body gear "locked".
Perhaps if the switch is left in the un-locked position, then of course the body gear would move with the nose wheel.
That would get your immediate attention in a high speed turn off situation.
Perhaps if the switch is left in the un-locked position, then of course the body gear would move with the nose wheel.
That would get your immediate attention in a high speed turn off situation.
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G.Khan
I aggree with what you say providing you are talking about using a high speed exit. In this case they were not. E5 is a 90 degree exit with small fillets and should not be taken above 10 knots approximately even if requested be ATC to do so as in this case.
As I said before, the excuse is just that - an excuse.
Have a nice day
I aggree with what you say providing you are talking about using a high speed exit. In this case they were not. E5 is a 90 degree exit with small fillets and should not be taken above 10 knots approximately even if requested be ATC to do so as in this case.
As I said before, the excuse is just that - an excuse.
Have a nice day
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Gentlemen
What's wrong with a company that assume technical problems before hanging the crew.
I know I would like to work for a co. that operates that way.
We'll all see what actually happened when all facts on hand.
Thanx for the word.
seupp
What's wrong with a company that assume technical problems before hanging the crew.
I know I would like to work for a co. that operates that way.
We'll all see what actually happened when all facts on hand.
Thanx for the word.
seupp
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Seupp,
The first thing that they will do is hang the crew. IF this was an incident the crew would have flown home as passengers and probably spent the next 6 months on paid leave. Then depending on the severity of the incident they would either get fired, retrained or promoted to higher management
But in this case the crew probably went off to drink some SanMigs and enjoy the rest of their layover. The aircraft operated the return sector around 2 hours behind schedule.
All of this leads me to believe that the newspaper article was B.S in the first place.
I think that Rabbits "eyewitness", would make a great news reporter, after all they don’t need facts!.
As for all of the above suggestions on what might have happened, they are ALL WRONG.
Finally, concerning IJP’s statement, please remember that although this is a rumour network, statements such as yours will never go unchallenged, so as Sam has already stated, Put Up or Shut Up~!
Have a good day.
Mutt.
The first thing that they will do is hang the crew. IF this was an incident the crew would have flown home as passengers and probably spent the next 6 months on paid leave. Then depending on the severity of the incident they would either get fired, retrained or promoted to higher management
But in this case the crew probably went off to drink some SanMigs and enjoy the rest of their layover. The aircraft operated the return sector around 2 hours behind schedule.
All of this leads me to believe that the newspaper article was B.S in the first place.
I think that Rabbits "eyewitness", would make a great news reporter, after all they don’t need facts!.
As for all of the above suggestions on what might have happened, they are ALL WRONG.
Finally, concerning IJP’s statement, please remember that although this is a rumour network, statements such as yours will never go unchallenged, so as Sam has already stated, Put Up or Shut Up~!
Have a good day.
Mutt.
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Blue Eagle and Mutt,
Ever work at Saudia? I have . Lots of things happen there that you don't hear about. The only way we (crew) would hear about incidents is from each other, the company would tell you nothing. As for major accidents, losing a Tri Star and Jumbo with all on board due to incompetence should be considered. Granted some problems there are small , like 2 kids going out the bottom of a Tri Star because wrong wheels were installed, and exploded over Bahrain. I could go on an on....As for blame, they are very careful to protect locals, in articles about SV162, it only mentioned 2 crewmembers, I quote " The crew consisted of an American F/E and British F/A" How do you suppose the public would interpit that line ?
Is this putting up, if so, who should shut up?
Towerdog,
As usual, you are right.
Rabbit,
See my comment to Towerdog, same applies!
Ever work at Saudia? I have . Lots of things happen there that you don't hear about. The only way we (crew) would hear about incidents is from each other, the company would tell you nothing. As for major accidents, losing a Tri Star and Jumbo with all on board due to incompetence should be considered. Granted some problems there are small , like 2 kids going out the bottom of a Tri Star because wrong wheels were installed, and exploded over Bahrain. I could go on an on....As for blame, they are very careful to protect locals, in articles about SV162, it only mentioned 2 crewmembers, I quote " The crew consisted of an American F/E and British F/A" How do you suppose the public would interpit that line ?
Is this putting up, if so, who should shut up?
Towerdog,
As usual, you are right.
Rabbit,
See my comment to Towerdog, same applies!
Last edited by ijp; 11th Jun 2002 at 22:16.
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Fair Enough
ijp Yes, obviously a lot does happen in Saudia that the rest of the world don't hear about, sorry to hear that such is the case though.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 12th Jun 2002 at 01:18.
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Would have to agree with ijp...spent a fair number of years there myself. But OTOH, most just carried on...and collected the cash.
After one lost a sense of humor, it's goodby time.
After one lost a sense of humor, it's goodby time.
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ijp,
A Kakistan Ill76 descends through its assigned level and crashes into a Saudi B747, how can you claim that this is due to Saudi incompetence?
I guess that I have you at a disadvantage, while you can talk of the Saudia of yesterday, I'm talking about the present airline. I guess that you might find that Sam is as well.
A lot has changed since the L1011 days, both in the airline and the country. You probably wouldn’t recognize either. Did you ever think that you would see the day when a FO called Al-Saud was found guilty of PILOT ERROR and sent back for further training? Did you ever think that you would see the day when they had no Expat pilots? (That’s coming soon..)
The newspaper article which I started this topic with is pure BS, I knew this before I posted it because I read the Captains report written by an EXPATRIATE.
Blue Eagle, a lot happens in EVERY airline that the rest of the world doesn’t hear about......... so I fail to see your point!
Saudia doesn’t have all the answers, but their present day record doesn’t deserve this Some people should not fly, look at their record, and the list of excuses continues, but never pilot error.
Cheers
Mutt.
A Kakistan Ill76 descends through its assigned level and crashes into a Saudi B747, how can you claim that this is due to Saudi incompetence?
I guess that I have you at a disadvantage, while you can talk of the Saudia of yesterday, I'm talking about the present airline. I guess that you might find that Sam is as well.
A lot has changed since the L1011 days, both in the airline and the country. You probably wouldn’t recognize either. Did you ever think that you would see the day when a FO called Al-Saud was found guilty of PILOT ERROR and sent back for further training? Did you ever think that you would see the day when they had no Expat pilots? (That’s coming soon..)
The newspaper article which I started this topic with is pure BS, I knew this before I posted it because I read the Captains report written by an EXPATRIATE.
Blue Eagle, a lot happens in EVERY airline that the rest of the world doesn’t hear about......... so I fail to see your point!
Saudia doesn’t have all the answers, but their present day record doesn’t deserve this Some people should not fly, look at their record, and the list of excuses continues, but never pilot error.
Cheers
Mutt.
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Wasn't really making a point, as you put it Mutt.
It is a sad day for aviation safety worldwide when incidents don't get shared so that we can all benefit, I am aware that incidents in all carriers don't always make it to the daylight though.
I always thought Saudi had a fairly good record and was surprised at some of the incidents that ijp mentioned.
Do you have a problem with that?
It is a sad day for aviation safety worldwide when incidents don't get shared so that we can all benefit, I am aware that incidents in all carriers don't always make it to the daylight though.
I always thought Saudi had a fairly good record and was surprised at some of the incidents that ijp mentioned.
Do you have a problem with that?
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Mutt
I think the policies in SV started to change just a little when a 737, after having diverted to Taif, was landed on 34C with a "slight" tailwind, ref +40, and ran off the end, thru the localizer antenna. As I recall, the F/O was the first out of the aeroplane, thru the left rear door. The Saudi Captain was immediately suspended...and remained so by the time I had left in 1990.
I think management started to look inward at that time, to try to find out..."what is wrong?"
I think the policies in SV started to change just a little when a 737, after having diverted to Taif, was landed on 34C with a "slight" tailwind, ref +40, and ran off the end, thru the localizer antenna. As I recall, the F/O was the first out of the aeroplane, thru the left rear door. The Saudi Captain was immediately suspended...and remained so by the time I had left in 1990.
I think management started to look inward at that time, to try to find out..."what is wrong?"
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I won't argue the Karachi crash, however there is controversy about that crash. The Kakistan flt was painted a 14,500, 500 below the assigned flt lvl, granted, but the SV flt was assigned 140....They were both warned about trafic. I only know rumors about this whole incident so I can only give an opinion.
However, something to consider,SV's accident rate is 1.67, not bad when compared to Korean or other Asian airlines, but Europe and the USA combined only have 4 airlines with worse records...Olympic, Turkish, Value Jet,and Midwest. I make the same statement about them as well.
I would recognise Saudi Arabia as I was there on the Haj. It is considerably worse than the it was in the 70s. I have watched this decline( decline thru western eyes) for years. I was attached to the US Embassy for the worst 6 mos of my life.
We were told that there would be no expats in 5 to 10 years also, (except for Sam Bigler) That was in the 70s But there will always be a need for expats as long as they, and others need someone around to blame.
Also,Expats can make up excuses with the best of them.
However, something to consider,SV's accident rate is 1.67, not bad when compared to Korean or other Asian airlines, but Europe and the USA combined only have 4 airlines with worse records...Olympic, Turkish, Value Jet,and Midwest. I make the same statement about them as well.
I would recognise Saudi Arabia as I was there on the Haj. It is considerably worse than the it was in the 70s. I have watched this decline( decline thru western eyes) for years. I was attached to the US Embassy for the worst 6 mos of my life.
We were told that there would be no expats in 5 to 10 years also, (except for Sam Bigler) That was in the 70s But there will always be a need for expats as long as they, and others need someone around to blame.
Also,Expats can make up excuses with the best of them.