Saudi B747 in Manila
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Mutt,
Saudia always had excellent training AVAILABLE. It had a great training center with, some really good people.Also sim right there. Your points were well taken The standards for expats was very, very high. Especially for the ex BA guys. For some reason they were put thru the ringer.
I will email you the next time I am in town, for that Pepsi.
IJP
Saudia always had excellent training AVAILABLE. It had a great training center with, some really good people.Also sim right there. Your points were well taken The standards for expats was very, very high. Especially for the ex BA guys. For some reason they were put thru the ringer.
I will email you the next time I am in town, for that Pepsi.
IJP
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Mutt, not really sure whose horn you are blowing at the moment, although I am reasonably certain of the origin of your passport.
According to some triple seven skipper friends of mine who work there, Saudia continues to be an exercise in upgrade nepotism, a Kwaji hell on earth, and an embarrassment to the broader aviation community in general.
The list of incidents/accidents in the last few years, although not generally public, is a damning indictment of the flying club culture that continues to hold sway at Jeddah Ops.
Your defense of same is laudable, but not really in line with the whole picture.
According to some triple seven skipper friends of mine who work there, Saudia continues to be an exercise in upgrade nepotism, a Kwaji hell on earth, and an embarrassment to the broader aviation community in general.
The list of incidents/accidents in the last few years, although not generally public, is a damning indictment of the flying club culture that continues to hold sway at Jeddah Ops.
Your defense of same is laudable, but not really in line with the whole picture.
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As Mutt has said, Saudia is undergoing great changes at present; currently non-Saudis are being eliminated, and at present rates, will probably be totally gone in about 2-3 years.
The biggest change I've noticed at Saudia (AND the Saudi press & society in general; those who read Arab News & Saudi Gazette will confirm this) is the trend to openness and honesty. Now, as you previous employees can attest, these were never attributes anyone would ever use to describe Saudi society, the Saudi press, or Saudia. Their attitude was to hide everything. That has changed a great deal; incidents are reported honestly now, to all crewmembers, in depth. Do they have a long way to go? Damned right! But, they've come further in 25 years than they have in the previous 1500!
This isn't to cover up problems, only to acknowledge improvement (and encourage more!). Sam.
Bottom line: wait for the investigators, then let fly! Sam.
The biggest change I've noticed at Saudia (AND the Saudi press & society in general; those who read Arab News & Saudi Gazette will confirm this) is the trend to openness and honesty. Now, as you previous employees can attest, these were never attributes anyone would ever use to describe Saudi society, the Saudi press, or Saudia. Their attitude was to hide everything. That has changed a great deal; incidents are reported honestly now, to all crewmembers, in depth. Do they have a long way to go? Damned right! But, they've come further in 25 years than they have in the previous 1500!
This isn't to cover up problems, only to acknowledge improvement (and encourage more!). Sam.
Bottom line: wait for the investigators, then let fly! Sam.
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ijp
I can tell you exactly why the ex-BA guys had/have a hard time.
During a layover in CDG years ago, met up with an SV (Saudi) Captain at Harry's New York Bar (IBF headquarters)...and during our discussions over one or three, discovered that he was a co-pilot on DC-6's at about the same time that I was, different companies.
His opinion was....the BA guys come down here and try to tell us how to run our airline. We know how to run it, all we ask is for these guys is to fly the plane, OUR way. But no, all they have to say is...."well at BA, we did it this way....".
Have to say, after spending 10 years+ there...more or less, have to agree.
I can tell you exactly why the ex-BA guys had/have a hard time.
During a layover in CDG years ago, met up with an SV (Saudi) Captain at Harry's New York Bar (IBF headquarters)...and during our discussions over one or three, discovered that he was a co-pilot on DC-6's at about the same time that I was, different companies.
His opinion was....the BA guys come down here and try to tell us how to run our airline. We know how to run it, all we ask is for these guys is to fly the plane, OUR way. But no, all they have to say is...."well at BA, we did it this way....".
Have to say, after spending 10 years+ there...more or less, have to agree.
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411
I am reluctant to say this as it my bring the ceiling down, and I don't want to defend my statement. It is only my opinion, I really don't want to argue it.
I firmly believe that you are 100% correct. The Poms really talked down to the Saudis, and went on and on about perfect BA. Well I believe that they would hire ex BA guys just to humiliate and fire them. I know it sounds crazy, but after some training flights and Sim sessions, they (the Saudis) would have some of these guys talking to themselves. Some made it thru, granted, but we Americans never put up with some of the crap that the Brits did. And as I stated, there was always one that busted something and was on his way home. Sometimes they would use the "Hatchet Man" RH, an American with TWA to do it. It was a nightmare to ride with him.
I also saw the same thing at Air Lanka. They chopped some good Capts (ex BA, just because of arrogance) There policy seemed to be , better a marginal Yank (me) than a hot shot ex BA smart ass. When I was hired there, my sim mate was an ex BA instructor, later Gulf Air Chief Instructor. I made it , he didn't, and he forgot more about the airplane than I knew. His problem was that they hired him as an instructor and he thought they were serious. They didn't want to hear about BA.
You know you really sound familiar to me, were you a collegue with now retired FAA Inspector Grady Smith? Flying for JAL when everyone was fired?
I am reluctant to say this as it my bring the ceiling down, and I don't want to defend my statement. It is only my opinion, I really don't want to argue it.
I firmly believe that you are 100% correct. The Poms really talked down to the Saudis, and went on and on about perfect BA. Well I believe that they would hire ex BA guys just to humiliate and fire them. I know it sounds crazy, but after some training flights and Sim sessions, they (the Saudis) would have some of these guys talking to themselves. Some made it thru, granted, but we Americans never put up with some of the crap that the Brits did. And as I stated, there was always one that busted something and was on his way home. Sometimes they would use the "Hatchet Man" RH, an American with TWA to do it. It was a nightmare to ride with him.
I also saw the same thing at Air Lanka. They chopped some good Capts (ex BA, just because of arrogance) There policy seemed to be , better a marginal Yank (me) than a hot shot ex BA smart ass. When I was hired there, my sim mate was an ex BA instructor, later Gulf Air Chief Instructor. I made it , he didn't, and he forgot more about the airplane than I knew. His problem was that they hired him as an instructor and he thought they were serious. They didn't want to hear about BA.
You know you really sound familiar to me, were you a collegue with now retired FAA Inspector Grady Smith? Flying for JAL when everyone was fired?
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ijp
You've about summed it up. And, RH, well now he had it it for the Brits, no doubt at all. They were sure happy to see him return to TWA...but don't think the TWA guys were.
No, not JAL, but was at UL for 5 years, and the Brits talked down to them as well. Oddly enough, only the ex-BA guys, those that flew for the independents, no problem at all.
Smith issued my type in the L10, up at Al-Wedj, and the Saudi instructor, MK, told him to ..."keep your hands OFF the circuit breakers, period, unless you tell me first". When he arrived later as DirSafety, he was given an office upstairs and a nice IBM typewriter, but no plug on the end of the cord. When he mentioned this to me, I told him to "smile at your bankbook and don't make waves". Quite a nice guy.
You've about summed it up. And, RH, well now he had it it for the Brits, no doubt at all. They were sure happy to see him return to TWA...but don't think the TWA guys were.
No, not JAL, but was at UL for 5 years, and the Brits talked down to them as well. Oddly enough, only the ex-BA guys, those that flew for the independents, no problem at all.
Smith issued my type in the L10, up at Al-Wedj, and the Saudi instructor, MK, told him to ..."keep your hands OFF the circuit breakers, period, unless you tell me first". When he arrived later as DirSafety, he was given an office upstairs and a nice IBM typewriter, but no plug on the end of the cord. When he mentioned this to me, I told him to "smile at your bankbook and don't make waves". Quite a nice guy.
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I've never heard of an "uncommanded" body gear failure before, although I suspect from the sketchy details I know It may be that Body gear steering was armed too early in the landing roll. I do remember ( and have a few extra white hairs to prove it) that the last 1000 feet of R/W 24 is VERY slippery when wet. The turn off is at the end of the runway.
Controversial, moi?
411A
For somebody who demonstrates arrogance and an 'I know best attitude' in virtually every asinine posting you make most of what you have posted above is rich to say the least.
For somebody who demonstrates arrogance and an 'I know best attitude' in virtually every asinine posting you make most of what you have posted above is rich to say the least.
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But unfortunately, M.Mouse, all quite true. Unless you have worked for SV (and smiled at you bankbook), you certainly would have NO idea.
The yanks got along at SV because we did not talk down to the Saudi's...and they could clearly notice. Also, suspect the Brits did not like the idea that they had to have an FAA license to work there. All most could do is whinge, constantly. Not all of course, say half.
The yanks got along at SV because we did not talk down to the Saudi's...and they could clearly notice. Also, suspect the Brits did not like the idea that they had to have an FAA license to work there. All most could do is whinge, constantly. Not all of course, say half.
Last edited by 411A; 14th Jun 2002 at 16:08.
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We must know each other, I'll keep guessing. I am always being accussed the same as mentioned by M. Mouse.
I guess when you push aiplanes around the sky for about 40 years, it is hard to relate to some people who think of experience and age as a handicap. Too bad, how do you think we got this old? I started some s... once before by telling this kid that I had more time waiting for fuel than he did in aviation.
I guess when you push aiplanes around the sky for about 40 years, it is hard to relate to some people who think of experience and age as a handicap. Too bad, how do you think we got this old? I started some s... once before by telling this kid that I had more time waiting for fuel than he did in aviation.
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catch 22
The end of 24 use to be so but the runway has recently been resurfaced and not a bad job too. As you hinted, it could be a case of the body gear being armed too soon. I suspect though that as is often the case there that they were asked to expedite and were doing so a little faster than they should have. The exit they attempted to use was E5 which is a 90 degree narrow taxiway with small fillets that required some care with large aircraft. As a result of being a little too fast the tail simply tried to pass the nose and they exited slightly unexpectedly adjacent to where they intended.
Have a nice day
The end of 24 use to be so but the runway has recently been resurfaced and not a bad job too. As you hinted, it could be a case of the body gear being armed too soon. I suspect though that as is often the case there that they were asked to expedite and were doing so a little faster than they should have. The exit they attempted to use was E5 which is a 90 degree narrow taxiway with small fillets that required some care with large aircraft. As a result of being a little too fast the tail simply tried to pass the nose and they exited slightly unexpectedly adjacent to where they intended.
Have a nice day
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411A,
Gotta hand it to you friend, in the face of abusive onslaught you appear to remain remarkably unruffled. Good stuff for a pilot to be sure, I just hope you’re able to crack a smile every now and again.
I do agree with you on one thing, despite my secret blushing affection for Brits in general, the boys and girls over at Superior Airways seem to have an uncanny knack for holding their beaks well above ground effect.
At the risk of asking an extremely leading question, do you think they know something we don’t?
Gotta hand it to you friend, in the face of abusive onslaught you appear to remain remarkably unruffled. Good stuff for a pilot to be sure, I just hope you’re able to crack a smile every now and again.
I do agree with you on one thing, despite my secret blushing affection for Brits in general, the boys and girls over at Superior Airways seem to have an uncanny knack for holding their beaks well above ground effect.
At the risk of asking an extremely leading question, do you think they know something we don’t?
