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Drones threatening commercial a/c?

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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 22:13
  #781 (permalink)  
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What about existing drones and those assembled from parts?
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Old 23rd Jul 2017, 12:51
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Originally Posted by Andrewgr2
All drones over 250g (8oz) apparently with safety tests for owners.
Most of what the government say that they are going to do comes from EASA NPA 2017-05 although you wouldn't know that from reading the government response to the DfT drone consultation (which is what prompted the various reports in the media yesterday).
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Old 23rd Jul 2017, 18:25
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Wondering when they will start calling RC planes "drones".
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Old 23rd Jul 2017, 20:33
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Perhaps that's answered early in the EU NPA where it says
The Agency [EASA] proposes to regulate both model aircraft and UAS through the same rules.
I confess I have not read all of the 128 pages of the NPA but it seems an all encompassing sledge hammer - no doubt without any means of enforcement
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 15:04
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I have not read it all either, but I note that there is a reference to the good safety record of model aircraft flyers, and their culture of safety.
It has been suggested that buyers of drones will have to register ( bit like the old Poisons register ), but GCPTN refers to drones built from components.
I buy balsa wood, ply, glue, fabric, motors, batteries, radio gear etc., all from different suppliers. It would hardly be practical to keep a register of all these purchases just in case I used them to build a flying model.
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 18:08
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UAV Collision report here

One of the most poorly researched and implemented set of tests I've seen in years. Badly thought out and biased.

An excellent appraisal here...

The authors are fully aware that the data is unreliable, uncalibrated and invalid by their own definition of the modelling process, yet they fail to admit this.
At present the UK government is poised to give Amazon permission to operate delivery drones at altitudes up to 400ft throughout the UK. Amazon drones will be flying autonomously and will have sense and avoid systems. However it is impossible for them, or any drone for that matter, to detect an aircraft travelling at 60 knots or 70mph and move out of its path in time to avoid a collision.

This study therefore demonstrates there is a clear and present danger to the GA community should Amazon be allowed to implement its delivery drone concept. For some reason though this rather obvious conclusion has missed BALPA, the DfT, the MAA, the CAA, and Lord Callanan. Instead once more hobbyist drone pilots are targeted, their potential threat overstated and the real threat to aviation missed entirely.
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 18:59
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The strange thing about the website you refer to Nige 321 is that it contains no biographical information as to the qualifications of those involved. Their twitter account was also quite active in denouncing the report as well without any basis .The twitter accounts that agreed with the website twitter feed are all fake.
Having looked at your post here and the tweets I would suggest you are the same person.Balpa decided to ignore you on twitter and I suggest that Pprune users do likewise.
I struggle to see what you are trying to gain by denouncing the report and where is the bias, or are you one of these people who thinks rules relating to air vehicles shouldn't apply to you.
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 19:18
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Originally Posted by tubby linton
Having looked at your post here and the tweets I would suggest you are the same person.
Hahaha... Very funny. I give you a 100% cast-iron guarantee I am not the same person. I don't even have a Twitter account...

I do have a PfCO and I do fly RC model aircraft as a hobby.

You can think what you like, I don't give a toss...
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 20:24
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Oh, and others think it's biased. BBC report I assume you've actually read the report?
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 00:22
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Originally Posted by IcePaq
Wondering when they will start calling RC planes "drones".
I have written to the Airprox Board, CAA & DfT asking for a clear definition of "drone".

To date the Airprox Board has responded to admit they have no definition. Yet they happily use the word in their reports.
The CAA has not responded since I wrote last year.
The DfT has about 14 days left of their promised response time.

Until such a defintion exists the proposed legislation is meaningless.
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 07:31
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Originally Posted by electrotor
I have written to the Airprox Board, CAA & DfT asking for a clear definition of "drone".

Until such a defintion exists the proposed legislation is meaningless.
While EASA do use the word drone on their website and in some documents, the draft regulation in NPA 2017-05 doesn't use the word drone, it uses UAS and gives a definition.
‘unmanned aircraft (UA)’ means any aircraft operated or designed to be operated without a pilot on board, which has the capacity to operate autonomously or to be piloted remotely;
UK regulations that are based on this will presumably do the same.

The UK DfT give a definition of 'drone' in their consultation document
A drone is an unmanned aircraft, normally flown by a pilot from a distance, using a remote control station that communicates instructions to the drone. Drones are also known as Remotely Piloted Aircraft Systems (RPAS) or Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS). Those using drones are referred to as drone users, operators or pilots.
although they didn't always follow it.

I have also complained to the Airprox board about their use of the term. They came back saying that they default to the term drone as UAS is too technical for the general public and press.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 15:47
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Originally Posted by sxjack
I have also complained to the Airprox board about their use of the term. They came back saying that they default to the term drone as UAS is too technical for the general public and press.
They gave me pretty much the same answer. Obviously some people couldn't be expected to cope with the highly technical nature of long words such as "Unmanned", "Aerial" & "Systems". Continuing this dumbing down I think we should start calling all road vehicles "broom brooms" and all shipping "boaties".

The Dft has pointed me to a document which was published last year and from which the definition that you give is taken, I suspect. (See page 10).

What is a drone?
1.1 A drone is an unmanned aircraft, normally flown by a pilot from a distance, using a remote control station that communicates instructions to the drone. Drones are also known as Remotely Piloted Aircraft Systems (RPAS) or Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS). Those using drones are referred to as drone users, operators or pilots.
1.2 Drones come in a variety of sizes – they can be as small as your hand, weighing less than 250g or as big as a small plane, weighing several tonnes. As they increase in size, they are able to travel further. Smaller drones tend to use electric motors for propulsion, whereas larger drones tend to use combustion engines like other conventional aircraft.


https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-of-drones.pdf

So there we have it. My interpretation is all radio control, wi-fi or bluetooth controlled models, regardless of type. This will no doubt upset many model flyers who have been flying their > 250g models safely for years and who consider drones to be something other than what they fly. There will be rioting on the streets for sure.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 16:33
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Originally Posted by electrotor

So there we have it. My interpretation is all radio control, wi-fi or bluetooth controlled models, regardless of type. This will no doubt upset many model flyers who have been flying their > 250g models safely for years and who consider drones to be something other than what they fly. There will be rioting on the streets for sure.
Not sure about the rioting but the BMFA has been looking out for the model flyers for a long time on this subject. Trying to persuade EASA and the CAA that 'traditional' R/C flyers are different from the nutter with a drone at the end of Gatwicks runway is an uphill task - they are all 'drones' as far as the lawyers are concerned. (Exactly the same argument is happening in Germany with their DMFV)

Having said that, a couple of CAA officials I've spoken to understand that BMFA members aren't the problem - one of them was a member himself...
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 17:11
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Originally Posted by Nige321
Not sure about the rioting but the BMFA has been looking out for the model flyers for a long time on this subject. Trying to persuade EASA and the CAA that 'traditional' R/C flyers are different from the nutter with a drone at the end of Gatwicks runway is an uphill task - they are all 'drones' as far as the lawyers are concerned. (Exactly the same argument is happening in Germany with their DMFV)

Having said that, a couple of CAA officials I've spoken to understand that BMFA members aren't the problem - one of them was a member himself...
It was unfortunate that the original consultation on 'drones' was not well advertised or understood either amongst the radio control model fraternity or the light aviation world. I am surprised at the difficulty EASA and the CAA are having with the definition, though I suspect this is down to lawyers wanting precise statements- which they will then spend fortunes picking apart if given the chance!

To me 'Line of Sight' is the obvious criterion; if outside that it's a 'drone'. Inside it can be a radio control model. The slope soaring r/c folk have the greatest problem there - LoS can be a fair distance.

While drones around large airports are an obvious danger, I'm also concerned about any spread of drone use generally at low level. While we ought to be able to define the main commercial use low level areas adequately, I doubt that the many light aircraft and microlight strips around the country will be well enough surveyed to ensure drones stay clear of active circuits. Will they have adequate avoidance mechanisms? I doubt it.

I think another snag here is that the CAA no longer have enough people left to carry out all the tasks they are assigned, especially practically experienced and knowledgeable ones.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 17:23
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What is unfortunate is that out of 35,000 BMFA members plus quite a few thousand other model flyers who don't bother to support the sport's national body, only 241 bothered to respond with comments on the consultation document. Numbers do count and this apathy has doubtless given the DfT the impression that model flyers aren't bothered what happens.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:48
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Originally Posted by biscuit74
I'm also concerned about any spread of drone use generally at low level.
EU governments want more commercial drone use. That is the main driver behind NPA 2017-05 and the coming unmanned traffic management system / U-Space.

See the Riga declaration, the Warsaw declaration and SESAR drone outlook study.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 20:51
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Originally Posted by sxjack
EU governments want more commercial drone use. That is the main driver behind NPA 2017-05 and the coming unmanned traffic management system / U-Space.

See the Riga declaration, the Warsaw declaration and SESAR drone outlook study.

Steve
I know. Worrying, given the level of ignorance our politicians show about aviation. (Well, about just about anything in any sense technical! )

Buster11 - I agree. I felt it wasn't well advertised either in the model world or the light aviation world in the UK.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 22:38
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Originally Posted by Buster11
What is unfortunate is that out of 35,000 BMFA members plus quite a few thousand other model flyers who don't bother to support the sport's national body, only 241 bothered to respond with comments on the consultation document. Numbers do count and this apathy has doubtless given the DfT the impression that model flyers aren't bothered what happens.
Did you actually try to plough your way through the consultation document? As someone used to the complexities of aviation regulation I found it a pain. Also it seemed more biased towards commercial operations NOT model flying.Those 241 were brave souls.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 22:44
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Originally Posted by Nige321
Not sure about the rioting but the BMFA has been looking out for the model flyers for a long time on this subject. Trying to persuade EASA and the CAA that 'traditional' R/C flyers are different from the nutter with a drone at the end of Gatwicks runway is an uphill task - they are all 'drones' as far as the lawyers are concerned. (Exactly the same argument is happening in Germany with their DMFV)

Having said that, a couple of CAA officials I've spoken to understand that BMFA members aren't the problem - one of them was a member himself...
There are several model flying organisations, representing the interests of their members, which are recognised by and meet with the CAA who have evolved CAP 658 over the years to be the guidance material for the relevant articles within the ANO. Model flying in the UK is well regulated and generally adhered to by responsible flyers. There will always be nutters however.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 21:30
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Electrotor, I agree the consultation document was certainly pretty dense and obviously biassed heavily towards commercial operations, but that was surely the very reason model flyers did need to comment. I think BMFA News referred to the paragraphs relevant to model flying well ahead of the response deadline. Trouble is, a lot of BMFA members say there's nothing in the magazine of interest to them and just bin it. Blinkered or what? I certainly didn't read every word and just focussed on the sections that affected 'orthodox' model flying before responding.
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