Drones threatening commercial a/c?
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Assuming that it is a drone, and that it was flying where it should not be... a bloody stupid thing to be doing.
But there does some to be an element of 'blame the drone' going on at present. Some of the claims of Drones at 10,000 feet and above are stretching credibility..
I assume this will be far lower though.
But there does some to be an element of 'blame the drone' going on at present. Some of the claims of Drones at 10,000 feet and above are stretching credibility..
I assume this will be far lower though.
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But there does some to be an element of 'blame the drone' going on at present.
As for higher altitude:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNHThfQFi3g & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7_PN4gum1A and those are no special drones. I doubt they are up as high as they say they are but it is still higher than one might think!
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Most (all) consumer drones would have been working hard at max power to get to that altitude (for those that can). And they will have no endurance left at all. Basically turning into an expensive falling stone.
The enterprise drones that have longer endurance cost into five figures. Lot of money to risk, not to mention CAA approvals.
That's why I'm sceptical.
The enterprise drones that have longer endurance cost into five figures. Lot of money to risk, not to mention CAA approvals.
That's why I'm sceptical.
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I'm guessing you haven't whizzed passed one on the approach then?
As for higher altitude:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNHThfQFi3g & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7_PN4gum1A and those are no special drones. I doubt they are up as high as they say they are but it is still higher than one might think!
As for higher altitude:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNHThfQFi3g & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7_PN4gum1A and those are no special drones. I doubt they are up as high as they say they are but it is still higher than one might think!
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Interesting to have your perspective on it then!
I'm all for those who operate them sensibly and within the rules but, having had one encounter with a drone at about 1000ft, I can say that the issue is real and is a threat of sorts. Personally I think modern aircraft engines should be tested at full thrust and throwing a drone down it but I suppose a frozen chicken would still win.
I'm all for those who operate them sensibly and within the rules but, having had one encounter with a drone at about 1000ft, I can say that the issue is real and is a threat of sorts. Personally I think modern aircraft engines should be tested at full thrust and throwing a drone down it but I suppose a frozen chicken would still win.
The problem with that particular strategy is that jamming the frequencies on which the drones operate (2.4GHz and 5.8Ghz) would be disruptive on many other systems within the airfield.
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That would involve jamming all sorts of other devices in the area, because modern RC systems use spread spectrum (typically at 2.4 GHz, at lower frequencies for longer ranges up to 100 km). What is needed is an inexpensive transponder (e.g. uAvionix Ping200S ADS-B/Mode S Transponder) which all aircraft and secondary radars within some decent distance can pick up, just as AIS does for surface vessels. Of course, that doesn't in any way justify flying drones near airports, but this sort of technology should resolve the problems of flying remotely piloted aircraft in all appropriate airspace. The technology for UAVs is remarkably powerful and inexpensive, giving small electric craft an operational radius of about 100km, with full video ("first person view") and flight instrument data seen by the pilot.
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That would involve jamming all sorts of other devices in the area, because modern RC systems use spread spectrum (typically at 2.4 GHz, at lower frequencies for longer ranges up to 100 km). What is needed is an inexpensive transponder (e.g. uAvionix Ping200S ADS-B/Mode S Transponder) which all aircraft and secondary radars within some decent distance can pick up, just as AIS does for surface vessels. Of course, that doesn't in any way justify flying drones near airports, but this sort of technology should resolve the problems of flying remotely piloted aircraft in all appropriate airspace. The technology for UAVs is remarkably powerful and inexpensive, giving small electric craft an operational radius of about 100km, with full video ("first person view") and flight instrument data seen by the pilot.
Really, 100Km & inexpensive?
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Well, no, not really.
Some of the higher end units offer range "up to 2 miles" between the controller and the aircraft, but, remember, that's a radius.
So you can't be 2 miles up and 2 miles away.
If it was, in fact, a drone, we're probably looking at something modified by a knowledgeable individual for greater range.
(As in optimize the antennae in both the controller and the craft, find all the wobbly grounds in the craft and correct them, and perhaps add a ground plane to the controller. The last part would be inconvenient to drag around.)
But why the f*ck someone that smart would fly into commercial airspace is beyond me.
Unless...
Some of the higher end units offer range "up to 2 miles" between the controller and the aircraft, but, remember, that's a radius.
So you can't be 2 miles up and 2 miles away.
If it was, in fact, a drone, we're probably looking at something modified by a knowledgeable individual for greater range.
(As in optimize the antennae in both the controller and the craft, find all the wobbly grounds in the craft and correct them, and perhaps add a ground plane to the controller. The last part would be inconvenient to drag around.)
But why the f*ck someone that smart would fly into commercial airspace is beyond me.
Unless...
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Here is a UAV (not a multicopter) developed and sold for both commercial users and amateur builders. Flown to 13,000 feet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhDhk8WrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RDaBTwC6I
Here is an off-the-shelf model capable of 100 km radius: details presented by a world expert (in China) on "drones" of all kinds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRAH-E0bczA
And two actual 100 km out and back flights of similar craft (lots of details):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqMm_gzuRYI&t=33s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfzBiZUPSo0
These are all examples of people who are essentially hobbyists integrating off-the-shelf equipment. The technology is well established and anybody can build and fly an FPV UAV with IFR gear. It can even be completely automated with on-board software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RcwKYpTEWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhDhk8WrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RDaBTwC6I
Here is an off-the-shelf model capable of 100 km radius: details presented by a world expert (in China) on "drones" of all kinds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRAH-E0bczA
And two actual 100 km out and back flights of similar craft (lots of details):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqMm_gzuRYI&t=33s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfzBiZUPSo0
These are all examples of people who are essentially hobbyists integrating off-the-shelf equipment. The technology is well established and anybody can build and fly an FPV UAV with IFR gear. It can even be completely automated with on-board software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RcwKYpTEWE
Last edited by czarnajama; 3rd Jul 2017 at 07:43.
Via czarnajama:
"...can even be completely automated with on-board software..."
"...can even be completely automated with on-board software..."
A scenario to relate it to the thread issue - Thanks to GPS a drone could be launched to fly a pre-programmed race track on the final approach or departure ends of a runway waiting for a pax jet to fly near or into it. If a small explosive device (something like a hand grenade) were added to the drone and some proximity alert devices installed (cheaply available from the automotive parts world) then what we got is a poor mans (terrorist) anti-aircraft missile.....
.
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UAV's such as the Gemini are really only ever going to be in the hands of enthusiasts, whom one would hope will know better....
The more commonly attributable DJI drones, the Mavic, Phantom, and the more expensive Inspire are the one's which are more accessible to the newbie, but have impressive performance for their size.
DJI and the other manufacturers are becoming more switched on. They are using GPS to disable the UAV in certain areas. Unfortunately as with most software some backdoors exist, and I believe there is some firmware circulating that circumvents the protection. The protected areas are mostly a radius around the centre of runways, rather than following any Class of airspace.
DJI will switch off the protection for people with PfCO at specific time and locations, with prior notice and proof etc.
Whether Pilots like it or not UAV Drone's are out of the box and sharing your air.
The real issue is the lack of enforcement of the regs. Currently the CAA seem to have little interest, unless it's one of the 'big' events such as this. Other people flouting the rules will not be investigated or prosecuted. There was a video recently taken by a drone of an event in Kent. The event had well over 1,000 people and no-one with normal permissions would be able to fly over the crowd legally. The chap who filmed it had no PfCO and should not even have been in the air in that location, without the crowd. He has other video's which flouts the regs.
His video was reported to the police, who gave him a warning as he was not aware of the regs.
If he had driven a car without a license would a warning be appropriate?
The regulations are not being followed, simply because they are not being enforced.
Do I believe a Drone will bring down a plane? I'm not sure. I do believe that a collision in the present system is inevitable. Will it bring down a plane? That may be down to luck - which is not acceptable.
The more commonly attributable DJI drones, the Mavic, Phantom, and the more expensive Inspire are the one's which are more accessible to the newbie, but have impressive performance for their size.
DJI and the other manufacturers are becoming more switched on. They are using GPS to disable the UAV in certain areas. Unfortunately as with most software some backdoors exist, and I believe there is some firmware circulating that circumvents the protection. The protected areas are mostly a radius around the centre of runways, rather than following any Class of airspace.
DJI will switch off the protection for people with PfCO at specific time and locations, with prior notice and proof etc.
Whether Pilots like it or not UAV Drone's are out of the box and sharing your air.
The real issue is the lack of enforcement of the regs. Currently the CAA seem to have little interest, unless it's one of the 'big' events such as this. Other people flouting the rules will not be investigated or prosecuted. There was a video recently taken by a drone of an event in Kent. The event had well over 1,000 people and no-one with normal permissions would be able to fly over the crowd legally. The chap who filmed it had no PfCO and should not even have been in the air in that location, without the crowd. He has other video's which flouts the regs.
His video was reported to the police, who gave him a warning as he was not aware of the regs.
If he had driven a car without a license would a warning be appropriate?
The regulations are not being followed, simply because they are not being enforced.
Do I believe a Drone will bring down a plane? I'm not sure. I do believe that a collision in the present system is inevitable. Will it bring down a plane? That may be down to luck - which is not acceptable.
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A/C diverting. Pax being hugely inconvenienced. Airline incurs a not inconsiderable cost. Surely this event highlights it was not an insignificant moment.
The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the laser culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the laser culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
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A/C diverting. Pax being hugely inconvenienced. Airline incurs a not inconsiderable cost. Surely this event highlights it was not an insignificant moment.
The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the laser culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the laser culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
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That would be the end of Wi-Fi for anyone living near the airport as well as anyone wanting t o use the Wi-Fi within the airport too.
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[quote=Daysleeper;9819430]
That's OK for expensive drones of the future that have that capability but no good for the cheap ones everyone has at the moment
drone unless it falls to the ground/QUOTE]
How about requiring the drone to transmit its registration at all times?
How about requiring the drone to transmit its registration at all times?