Ryanair and 900 hours a year limitation?
Capt Stable:
"I apologise for having allowed myself to be drawn into such an idiotic argument".
That is precisely my point. I really do not think it is within the remit of moderators to get themselves so deeply involved in such matters nor is it in their remit to make contentious statements. You have lost a lot of my respect for so doing.
If you continue down this path the role of the moderator is going to be viewed as something akin to having Mr Al Fayeed put in charge of refereeing a Chelsea match!
I am also a bit worried about your description of this thread as an "idiotic" argument. I do not work for Ryanair but I suspect that most of their pilots are heartily sick of the puerile and largely ill-informed comments that we are constantly being bombarded with.
I have no doubt that the vast majority of the pilots who fly for Ryanair are every bit as professional as the rest of us and that they go in every morning and do a damned good job.
By the way, I seem to remember someone in the past banging on about how fast Ryanair pilots taxi. From my experience, the European leader in this field is Lufthansa.
"I apologise for having allowed myself to be drawn into such an idiotic argument".
That is precisely my point. I really do not think it is within the remit of moderators to get themselves so deeply involved in such matters nor is it in their remit to make contentious statements. You have lost a lot of my respect for so doing.
If you continue down this path the role of the moderator is going to be viewed as something akin to having Mr Al Fayeed put in charge of refereeing a Chelsea match!
I am also a bit worried about your description of this thread as an "idiotic" argument. I do not work for Ryanair but I suspect that most of their pilots are heartily sick of the puerile and largely ill-informed comments that we are constantly being bombarded with.
I have no doubt that the vast majority of the pilots who fly for Ryanair are every bit as professional as the rest of us and that they go in every morning and do a damned good job.
By the way, I seem to remember someone in the past banging on about how fast Ryanair pilots taxi. From my experience, the European leader in this field is Lufthansa.
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bravo.lima - read what I wrote:-
JW - the loss of your respect is something that I am going to have to live with. As to a moderator's remit, we all have our own opinions. All speak them as they see fit, according to their qualification and experience. I am sure that FR pilots are tired of ill-informed comments. I make no attack on them. My main worry is with the corporate structure and management.
All the items I have mentioned above have been brought to the awareness of organisations that are capable of addressing them.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 30th May 2002 at 10:47.
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Capt Stable
Ur comments on this thread have been biased and idiotic.
If as you allege ''all the items mentioned have been brought to the awareness of organizations that are capable of addressing them''- if thats the case then I'm sure that they have been addressed, and in fact found to be complete rubbish. You dont work here, you know nothing about our safety procedures and practices so spare us any more of your baseless opinions.
Secondly your statement that you ''make no attack on ryanair pilots'' is an astounding lie. On a previous post you accused us of
''poor airmanship of FR pilots''. Such an unfounded and insulting statement is beneath contempt. Coming from a supposed 'safety moderator' shows that you are unfit to hold such a title. I believe you should apologise for such an unworthy slur, and then lets move on to more worthy subjects of comment, such as the awful situation facing professional colleagues in EI today.
Ur comments on this thread have been biased and idiotic.
If as you allege ''all the items mentioned have been brought to the awareness of organizations that are capable of addressing them''- if thats the case then I'm sure that they have been addressed, and in fact found to be complete rubbish. You dont work here, you know nothing about our safety procedures and practices so spare us any more of your baseless opinions.
Secondly your statement that you ''make no attack on ryanair pilots'' is an astounding lie. On a previous post you accused us of
''poor airmanship of FR pilots''. Such an unfounded and insulting statement is beneath contempt. Coming from a supposed 'safety moderator' shows that you are unfit to hold such a title. I believe you should apologise for such an unworthy slur, and then lets move on to more worthy subjects of comment, such as the awful situation facing professional colleagues in EI today.
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ILUV, please stop throwing toys out of the cot and read what I actually wrote. (Or, if you did read it, please stop misquoting me).
I stated quite clearly, and have reiterated the point, that Ryanair pilots are no less professional than anywhere else.
If you really want to believe I know nothing about FR, then please feel free to carry on doing so.
I stated quite clearly, and have reiterated the point, that Ryanair pilots are no less professional than anywhere else.
If you really want to believe I know nothing about FR, then please feel free to carry on doing so.
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hey all you FR guys and girls.
lets ALL stop this petty bickering whilst your countrymen are under attack. the AL guys need your support - you are the only ones who can effectively support their cause.
please, don't try to make hay from the Aer Lingus strike or you may well be next.
time to put up folks.........stand firm BESIDE your AL colleagues and offer them some real and public support.
can you do this for them. will you?
lets ALL stop this petty bickering whilst your countrymen are under attack. the AL guys need your support - you are the only ones who can effectively support their cause.
please, don't try to make hay from the Aer Lingus strike or you may well be next.
time to put up folks.........stand firm BESIDE your AL colleagues and offer them some real and public support.
can you do this for them. will you?
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Ryanair and 900 hours a year
I thought this thread was to be about Ryanair's method of calculating 900 hours. Instead it has become a slagging match about their alleged lack of standards. Let's keep to the point. I, for one, am fed up reading a thread and then finding it has been hijacked on to another topic.
Regarding the 900 hrs issue, FR management claim to have IAA approval for stopping and re-starting the clock on 1st April (appropriate date) every year from now on. According to a friend who works there, not one of them can produce a single scrap of paper to prove that this is the case. The concept of zeroing the hours is not new but has not been done in the British Isles before to my knowledge where the usual system is a rolling annual 900 hrs calculated at the end of each month as in CAP 371. If the company has IAA approval then show it to the pilots who only want to know where they stand. If they haven't got it then the IAA must do their job and tell both the pilots and the company. I believe that pilots who wrote to the IAA on this issue have not received a reply. I wonder why, or is the IAA also in MOL's pocket? Wouldnt surprise anyone.
Regarding the 900 hrs issue, FR management claim to have IAA approval for stopping and re-starting the clock on 1st April (appropriate date) every year from now on. According to a friend who works there, not one of them can produce a single scrap of paper to prove that this is the case. The concept of zeroing the hours is not new but has not been done in the British Isles before to my knowledge where the usual system is a rolling annual 900 hrs calculated at the end of each month as in CAP 371. If the company has IAA approval then show it to the pilots who only want to know where they stand. If they haven't got it then the IAA must do their job and tell both the pilots and the company. I believe that pilots who wrote to the IAA on this issue have not received a reply. I wonder why, or is the IAA also in MOL's pocket? Wouldnt surprise anyone.
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Crossfeed Closed
You have a good point; either the 900hrs is a rolling maximum or there should be an exemption issued by the IAA.
If there isn't such an exemption I would have thought that the Company insurance policy could well be invalidated if pilots exceed the maximum. Of course it is not only the companies responsibility to ensure that their pilots don’t exceed the maximum FTL’s but also the responsibility of the individual.
For any airline to have a proper safety culture pilots must be able to say "No" without the fear of being sacked. A useful indication of the likely outcome is the recent case of wrongful dismissal that was settled out of court and the subsequent actions of the IAA....................
You have a good point; either the 900hrs is a rolling maximum or there should be an exemption issued by the IAA.
If there isn't such an exemption I would have thought that the Company insurance policy could well be invalidated if pilots exceed the maximum. Of course it is not only the companies responsibility to ensure that their pilots don’t exceed the maximum FTL’s but also the responsibility of the individual.
For any airline to have a proper safety culture pilots must be able to say "No" without the fear of being sacked. A useful indication of the likely outcome is the recent case of wrongful dismissal that was settled out of court and the subsequent actions of the IAA....................
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WELL DONE GUYS.
you all just keep on bickering over semantics whilst your aer lingus colleagues get screwed. it's time to stick together children i'm afraid and not squable in the playground.
if AL can get away with management by terror and sackings, then guess what - Mikey boy will be watching closely and getting ready for his turn.
if he does, then you only have yourselves to blame.
stop bickering , act like the professionals you claim to be and support your professional AL colleagues.
rant over!
you all just keep on bickering over semantics whilst your aer lingus colleagues get screwed. it's time to stick together children i'm afraid and not squable in the playground.
if AL can get away with management by terror and sackings, then guess what - Mikey boy will be watching closely and getting ready for his turn.
if he does, then you only have yourselves to blame.
stop bickering , act like the professionals you claim to be and support your professional AL colleagues.
rant over!
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Well would you believe Mikey was on Irish radio (Newstalk 106) this morning actually PRAISING the Aer Lingus management and their actions !!! What a first!!
Now why would he do that? FR boys watch out...
Now why would he do that? FR boys watch out...
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Psycho,
It is you who's off the point. Of course the EI pilots deserve full support from all other professionals. Has IALPA asked the Ryanair, Cityjet and Aer Arann pilots for support? I dont think so. However, for your information Mikey O'Leary has already sacked two pilots in the last year. One was the IALPA chairman and the other was the Chief Pilots daughter. The RYANAIR pilots, including the chief pilot didnt stand up for their own two, so how can you expect help from that quarter. Funny, the chief pilot is also now gone - "retired".
It is you who's off the point. Of course the EI pilots deserve full support from all other professionals. Has IALPA asked the Ryanair, Cityjet and Aer Arann pilots for support? I dont think so. However, for your information Mikey O'Leary has already sacked two pilots in the last year. One was the IALPA chairman and the other was the Chief Pilots daughter. The RYANAIR pilots, including the chief pilot didnt stand up for their own two, so how can you expect help from that quarter. Funny, the chief pilot is also now gone - "retired".
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Duty hours and flying hours are different, we all know that. If we could fly 1200 hours a year I dont imagine there would be too many complaints if the duty hours didnt increase exponetially with the flying.
What it comes down to is more flying per duty; we have to look at the FH-DH ratio. I've done 1:4.5 / 5 and it sucks. Ive also done closer to 4 : 5 and it was terrific. More flying per duty and less messing around. Cant see much wrong with that!
1200 hours per year is only 25 hours a week. Even if you get 6 weeks off it only goes up to about 29 hours a week, or 5 - 6 flying hours per day.
What it comes down to is more flying per duty; we have to look at the FH-DH ratio. I've done 1:4.5 / 5 and it sucks. Ive also done closer to 4 : 5 and it was terrific. More flying per duty and less messing around. Cant see much wrong with that!
1200 hours per year is only 25 hours a week. Even if you get 6 weeks off it only goes up to about 29 hours a week, or 5 - 6 flying hours per day.
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Pauldegear up
I see in your profile you are retired.
So how much flying do you do in a day?
If you are not careful you will get the same reputation as other retired so called "experts" on this board.
I see in your profile you are retired.
So how much flying do you do in a day?
If you are not careful you will get the same reputation as other retired so called "experts" on this board.
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PSYCOBFH
Would love to help. However I work for another Irish Company that rules by terror. They REALLY do work us to the IAA FTLs Plus + + + + . I would like my colleges to join a union - any union, but they are scared or something ...... Any ideas?
Would love to help. However I work for another Irish Company that rules by terror. They REALLY do work us to the IAA FTLs Plus + + + + . I would like my colleges to join a union - any union, but they are scared or something ...... Any ideas?
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Sky9,
Yes the issue is really the pilots and the IAA. Neither appears to have any backbone on this issue. I hear that the IAA are telling FR pilots one thing (that its a rolling 900 hrs) and yet have agreed stopping the clock with Ryanair. And yes, where would an individual pilot be if there was an accident? I bet MOL wouldn't be seen for dust. But then again he could afford the lawsuit with all he's got out of Ryanair over the years! But who would stand up for the unfortunate pilot? IALPA ? BALPA? Not very likely given their past history. Remember FR pilots - you'll be on your own.
Yes the issue is really the pilots and the IAA. Neither appears to have any backbone on this issue. I hear that the IAA are telling FR pilots one thing (that its a rolling 900 hrs) and yet have agreed stopping the clock with Ryanair. And yes, where would an individual pilot be if there was an accident? I bet MOL wouldn't be seen for dust. But then again he could afford the lawsuit with all he's got out of Ryanair over the years! But who would stand up for the unfortunate pilot? IALPA ? BALPA? Not very likely given their past history. Remember FR pilots - you'll be on your own.
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When you are hanging around, having positioned from your home base to ABC and have a 2 or 3 hour wait before operating a couple or 4 short sectors which may give you 2hrs 40 mins flying in a 10 or 11 hour duty day you will have time to reflect on what is fatiguing;duty hours or flyng hours.
The whole issue is too complex to have one basic rule for all occasions and situations;the west coast to Europe long haul crews will have different needs to the east coast or far/middle east long haul crews. The high density multi sector, predominantly daytime, european operators will have different needs to the overnight freight or charter crews.
Perhaps it's about time each operator was able to agree with the authorities,unions and crews a workable FTL scheme which suits their operation.
The whole issue is too complex to have one basic rule for all occasions and situations;the west coast to Europe long haul crews will have different needs to the east coast or far/middle east long haul crews. The high density multi sector, predominantly daytime, european operators will have different needs to the overnight freight or charter crews.
Perhaps it's about time each operator was able to agree with the authorities,unions and crews a workable FTL scheme which suits their operation.
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ILUV re month off
thank you for pointing out some facts. here is a question for you. You say that when someone runs beyond the 900 hours in 12 months that they are off for a month - have you noticed anyone or know of anyone being out of hours for a month this year so far?
How on earth can 'not more than 900 hours in a year' be interpreted as anything other than 'In any 365 day period, no pilot shall fly more than 900 hours'?
Surely any half decent scheduling system software can keep an eye on rolling 365 day totals and slow down those approaching this limit so that they are not rostered for any duty likely to run up against it? Or am I being naiive in thinking that companies will not try to cheat the law for the very last pennies of revenue?
Surely any half decent scheduling system software can keep an eye on rolling 365 day totals and slow down those approaching this limit so that they are not rostered for any duty likely to run up against it? Or am I being naiive in thinking that companies will not try to cheat the law for the very last pennies of revenue?
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Jul 2002 at 10:31.
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PDGU
Stop being naive.
All companies would prefer either no rules at all or a fixed rule that cannot be abused. The problem comes when the Directors of Company A take a look at what Company B is operating and want the same.
You only have to see the continual rulings that the UK CAA have to make, where the fertile imagination of Crewing Officers and Management manage to make an interpretation of CAP371 that was never intended.
Stop being naive.
All companies would prefer either no rules at all or a fixed rule that cannot be abused. The problem comes when the Directors of Company A take a look at what Company B is operating and want the same.
You only have to see the continual rulings that the UK CAA have to make, where the fertile imagination of Crewing Officers and Management manage to make an interpretation of CAP371 that was never intended.
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Sky9
I agree with your first comment, but not the second.
CAP371 is out of date, and open to interpretation. You get one answer from the Belgrano, and a different one from the FOI's and Inspecting Officers. The reason why "continual" rulings are having to be made is that if you compare CAP371 to Airlines within EU or Non EU they have non of the early / late / night rules that CAP371 has, no finish at 2100 b4 3 nights, they don't bother with level 1/2/3 variations (the usual subject of rulings) because they can do 14 hr days without really bothering about it. We al agree we're safer using CAP371, but the rest say well we've been doing it for the last 20 years so wots the problem!.You then refer to your first para.
I agree with your first comment, but not the second.
CAP371 is out of date, and open to interpretation. You get one answer from the Belgrano, and a different one from the FOI's and Inspecting Officers. The reason why "continual" rulings are having to be made is that if you compare CAP371 to Airlines within EU or Non EU they have non of the early / late / night rules that CAP371 has, no finish at 2100 b4 3 nights, they don't bother with level 1/2/3 variations (the usual subject of rulings) because they can do 14 hr days without really bothering about it. We al agree we're safer using CAP371, but the rest say well we've been doing it for the last 20 years so wots the problem!.You then refer to your first para.
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Well No Joke, you and I both work for the same company.
We get exactly what we deserve, no less and no more. Why ? well WE are the ones who accept 14 hr days, split duties and multiple changes to our fluid roster. WE are the ones who agree to pay well below industry averages, and who permitted new hires to start on half pay. We are the ones who often accept multiple B defects and continue to operate the aircraft for fear of repercussions should we err on the side of flight safety. WE remain quite while a fellow Captain is suspended for misinterpreting SOP's regarding use of the jumpseat, while he attempted to help by bringing stranded crew home.
We stood by while others were disiclipined/ suspended or removed from their posts for standing up to BT, GW or TR.
We are the ones who are so weak and scared, who are too busy defending our own little corner, and who always expect someone else to carry the can, that we don't speak up even when we have something important to say.
WE are the very ones who degrade and shame ourselves by loading bags on our aircraft in Dub in order to break our baggage handlers strike, and put them permanently out of work.
Management are not the problem, we are. The just take advantage of the fools that roll over with their paws in the air. If you want to see change I suggest you move on to a company that embraces their employees as an asset, rather than tolerating them as a liability. Remember, even the rats eventually leave a sinking ship.
Oh and before the pro ryan lobby start barking at me, I'm talking about the other ****ty jet Irish company.
We get exactly what we deserve, no less and no more. Why ? well WE are the ones who accept 14 hr days, split duties and multiple changes to our fluid roster. WE are the ones who agree to pay well below industry averages, and who permitted new hires to start on half pay. We are the ones who often accept multiple B defects and continue to operate the aircraft for fear of repercussions should we err on the side of flight safety. WE remain quite while a fellow Captain is suspended for misinterpreting SOP's regarding use of the jumpseat, while he attempted to help by bringing stranded crew home.
We stood by while others were disiclipined/ suspended or removed from their posts for standing up to BT, GW or TR.
We are the ones who are so weak and scared, who are too busy defending our own little corner, and who always expect someone else to carry the can, that we don't speak up even when we have something important to say.
WE are the very ones who degrade and shame ourselves by loading bags on our aircraft in Dub in order to break our baggage handlers strike, and put them permanently out of work.
Management are not the problem, we are. The just take advantage of the fools that roll over with their paws in the air. If you want to see change I suggest you move on to a company that embraces their employees as an asset, rather than tolerating them as a liability. Remember, even the rats eventually leave a sinking ship.
Oh and before the pro ryan lobby start barking at me, I'm talking about the other ****ty jet Irish company.