MH17 down near Donetsk
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Sotilaspassi did you notice the clever bit, effectively even if we did fire it, it is the ukraine gov fault for allowing the aircraft to be there.!
I agree there is a question as to why the airspace was not closed but to say that exonerates us (if we did fire it) is bizarre.
I agree there is a question as to why the airspace was not closed but to say that exonerates us (if we did fire it) is bizarre.
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@TeeJoo
I understand the need to move heavy stuff to recover all bodies (photo & document the part before moving, then place the part back after body removing, if possible).
But I've also seen photos of people loading stuff on a lorry and carrying some heavy stuff to a van. (also videos IIRC)
@oldoberon
I agree that after the first airplane was downed above 5km, the whole airspace should have been closed. (14.July the UA plane was downed above 6km) But no-one reacted, even though Ukraine, NATO and Russia all knew it.
I understand the need to move heavy stuff to recover all bodies (photo & document the part before moving, then place the part back after body removing, if possible).
But I've also seen photos of people loading stuff on a lorry and carrying some heavy stuff to a van. (also videos IIRC)
@oldoberon
I agree that after the first airplane was downed above 5km, the whole airspace should have been closed. (14.July the UA plane was downed above 6km) But no-one reacted, even though Ukraine, NATO and Russia all knew it.
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New Video taken today. Minute 2.02 and 2.20, it looks like burned Gras under the seats, also 1.32. Does it burn at some parts in the Air?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ItzoTZBHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ItzoTZBHY
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More fresh footage and from first hour
fresh footage taken a few days before the Dutch went back, with someone who was there within an hour of it happening. Interspersed with never-before-seen footage that he took at the time.. English sub titles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5j5Bpa010Q
fresh footage taken a few days before the Dutch went back, with someone who was there within an hour of it happening. Interspersed with never-before-seen footage that he took at the time.. English sub titles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5j5Bpa010Q
I would tend to believe the villager ladies who said low flying aircraft where in the area at tree top level. Not that I think it was air-air that brought down this airliner but just more evidence of the chaos and fog of war.
Incredibly to think that airliners were flying overhead while war raged below.
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New Video taken today. Minute 2.02 and 2.20, it looks like burned Gras under the seats, also 1.32. Does it burn at some parts in the Air?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ItzoTZBHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ItzoTZBHY
Wreckage scattered that far apart would give some idea of the airborne breakup
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Spiegel Online - English
Druckversion - Deadly Ukraine Crash: German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17 - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
10/19/2014 08:08 AM
Deadly Ukraine Crash
German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17
Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.
After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.
Unambiguous Findings
Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.
BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.
"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.
Druckversion - Deadly Ukraine Crash: German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17 - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
10/19/2014 08:08 AM
Deadly Ukraine Crash
German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17
Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.
After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.
Unambiguous Findings
Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.
BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.
"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.
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Narobs writes
Disgrace !
All that stuff, including personal effects, is still lying around. Once the winter weather gets to it . . .
Aren't there any international standards governing the length of time that can be taken in collecting up and cataloguing all this stuff ?
><><<<><><><><<><>><><<<><>><><<><><<><><<><><><>>
I suppose you could volunteer, maybe even drive a flatbed there from London to collect debris
Disgrace !
All that stuff, including personal effects, is still lying around. Once the winter weather gets to it . . .
Aren't there any international standards governing the length of time that can be taken in collecting up and cataloguing all this stuff ?
><><<<><><><><<><>><><<<><>><><<><><<><><<><><><>>
I suppose you could volunteer, maybe even drive a flatbed there from London to collect debris
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Triumph61 New Video taken today. Minute 2.02 and 2.20, it looks like burned Gras under the seats, also 1.32. Does it burn at some parts in the Air?
Also, from minute 2:46 - 2:58 shows the impact crater of large caliber artillery.
Also, from minute 2:46 - 2:58 shows the impact crater of large caliber artillery.
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Video's 16/10/2014
The second part of this video can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAf8PFx3tmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAf8PFx3tmY
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Ukraine insisted all along that their lost Buks were not operational. What is this intelligence that Germans have but won't share?
Are they really sure it was Ukrainian Buk firing Ukrainian missile that shot down Boeing?
That is a quite a bold statement to make in itself, regardless of which side was operating it at the moment.
Are they really sure it was Ukrainian Buk firing Ukrainian missile that shot down Boeing?
That is a quite a bold statement to make in itself, regardless of which side was operating it at the moment.
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Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence.
We haven't seen the data that Germany has (nor are we likely to) but this type of data would be very conclusive.
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If this discussion is degenerating to the point where opinions in the press (of either side) are seriously considered, perhaps it is better that we pause for the investigators to do their work, when they are properly allowed to do so.
There is a wealth of knowledge on these forums, all too often diluted by idle speculation "supported" by the latest theory published by a journalist.
That is not something that professional pilots easily subscribe to.
It would be nice if the founding principals of pprune were actively supported by those who care about integrity and neutrality in reporting the known facts.
The investigation is in progress, meanwhile, conspiracy theorists, and those with "Agendas" are stating their case.
We are not microsoft flyers, or hacks ... we wait for the people we trust to do their work however long that takes.
This is the cultural problem we face here, and elsewhere until it is regulated by professional pilots again. 1000 posts, zero factual content
There is a wealth of knowledge on these forums, all too often diluted by idle speculation "supported" by the latest theory published by a journalist.
That is not something that professional pilots easily subscribe to.
It would be nice if the founding principals of pprune were actively supported by those who care about integrity and neutrality in reporting the known facts.
The investigation is in progress, meanwhile, conspiracy theorists, and those with "Agendas" are stating their case.
We are not microsoft flyers, or hacks ... we wait for the people we trust to do their work however long that takes.
This is the cultural problem we face here, and elsewhere until it is regulated by professional pilots again. 1000 posts, zero factual content
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Fully with Teddy Robinson on this.
Very few official statements have been made and even fewer of those accompanied by evidence. Speculations how things could have happened are rife, however.
Creating alternative scenarios here is as easy as for movie writers to add new plot twists. All we need is a nudge in any particular direction and imagination flies away.
Very few official statements have been made and even fewer of those accompanied by evidence. Speculations how things could have happened are rife, however.
Creating alternative scenarios here is as easy as for movie writers to add new plot twists. All we need is a nudge in any particular direction and imagination flies away.
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SA-11 complex is very simple and friendly system developed for use in Soviet Army (also in arabian too since it developed with study of arab-israel war and adapted for use here). All components can be detached and changed box by box. Even soldiers can fast repair TELAR equipment (if it is single failure and electronic equipment, not parts like radar antenna, feeders, hydralic systems).
Complex have very good diagnostic equipment on-board so crew can find failure (on level - box/module), officers can find failure inside box and officers of repair service must find and fix failure on-field.
If someone is familiar with Lebanon/Syrian skill in electronics then remember - they CAN use it.
P.S. Despite on any lie or politic game one thing is clear and undoubtedly - missile hit a plane from forward direction.
If that missile is 9M38M1 then only one direction from where it coming - direction from Torez/Snezhnoe because that missile cannot change direction of flight when targetting big slow non-maneur target. It how guidance system work - final piece of metal and cannot be changed with political situation in world or in press.
Complex have very good diagnostic equipment on-board so crew can find failure (on level - box/module), officers can find failure inside box and officers of repair service must find and fix failure on-field.
If someone is familiar with Lebanon/Syrian skill in electronics then remember - they CAN use it.
P.S. Despite on any lie or politic game one thing is clear and undoubtedly - missile hit a plane from forward direction.
If that missile is 9M38M1 then only one direction from where it coming - direction from Torez/Snezhnoe because that missile cannot change direction of flight when targetting big slow non-maneur target. It how guidance system work - final piece of metal and cannot be changed with political situation in world or in press.
Last edited by anonymousdefender; 21st Oct 2014 at 21:22.
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@Bathik and Teddy Robinson.
1000 posts, zero factual content.
I don't agree. The MH17 thread has factual content. What about the MH370 thread? The facts there could fit on a single A4.
And it will take two years or so before, if ever, the remains of the plane are found. Still the thread is larger than the MH17 thread and growing daily.
Even the pro-russian separist propaganda is interesting, because some eye-withnesses are interviewed.
The witnesses confirm that the plane was spinning (and losing parts) when crashing and crashed on a low gliding angle.
It also states the plane was downed by a Surface to air missile. So no side supports the stupid gun-theory anymore.
Every party in this tragedy has tried to use it for political gain. Even the Dutch, when Frans Timmermans used the 'thug removing the wedding ring from your wife' to gain support. From what I hear, the Russians block further dutch investigative and recovery effort (or at least offer no help). I guess they are still pissed by the sanctions. Internationally, it looks that the MH17 is off the agenda, because Russia and others are needed to counter IS, which is considered a larger threat than the civil war in Ukraine or Russian imperialism.
Despite their claims, without local work in de field, I don't think the DSB can carry out a complete investigation of the 'accident'. One way or the other, fragments and parts need to be recovered. A hangar has been reserved in Charkov for this effort.
Dutch news on MH17 was quiet for a few weeks, but last two weeks showed some developments.
Last week, four dutch workers joined the Ukraine recovery effort for personal belongings and remains. A small truckload was recovered, which will be shipped to the netherlands. Also, Dutch prime minister Rutte had a one-to-one with Putin, asking for support for the dutch return to the crash site. He reminded Putin of the fact that dutch companies helped to recover the Kursk including the remains of the sailors on board, and that the Dutch have the same feeling concerning the victims of MH17.
The German claim is also known in the Netherlands. Comment from the dutch criminal investigation team is that they have the same information and they hint that the Germans jump to conclusions. In short, they want to keep their cards close to the chest, while dutch parlement wants a public hearing.... Different from an air crash investigation, which can end with a 'most probable cause', a criminal investigation should be more rocksolid, because it has to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Think about the effort on PA 103.
At this moment all but 20 victims have been identified, which increases the believe that Ukraine recovery crews carried out their work rather thorough.
However, from at least one victim nothing has been recovered yet. Her uncle was the first dutch next of kin to visit the crash site, searching his niece. He only stayed for a short time, because there is still fighting going on there, especially in the yet unsearched area's.
I will add links later
1000 posts, zero factual content.
I don't agree. The MH17 thread has factual content. What about the MH370 thread? The facts there could fit on a single A4.
And it will take two years or so before, if ever, the remains of the plane are found. Still the thread is larger than the MH17 thread and growing daily.Even the pro-russian separist propaganda is interesting, because some eye-withnesses are interviewed.
The witnesses confirm that the plane was spinning (and losing parts) when crashing and crashed on a low gliding angle.
It also states the plane was downed by a Surface to air missile. So no side supports the stupid gun-theory anymore.
Every party in this tragedy has tried to use it for political gain. Even the Dutch, when Frans Timmermans used the 'thug removing the wedding ring from your wife' to gain support. From what I hear, the Russians block further dutch investigative and recovery effort (or at least offer no help). I guess they are still pissed by the sanctions. Internationally, it looks that the MH17 is off the agenda, because Russia and others are needed to counter IS, which is considered a larger threat than the civil war in Ukraine or Russian imperialism.
Despite their claims, without local work in de field, I don't think the DSB can carry out a complete investigation of the 'accident'. One way or the other, fragments and parts need to be recovered. A hangar has been reserved in Charkov for this effort.
Dutch news on MH17 was quiet for a few weeks, but last two weeks showed some developments.
Last week, four dutch workers joined the Ukraine recovery effort for personal belongings and remains. A small truckload was recovered, which will be shipped to the netherlands. Also, Dutch prime minister Rutte had a one-to-one with Putin, asking for support for the dutch return to the crash site. He reminded Putin of the fact that dutch companies helped to recover the Kursk including the remains of the sailors on board, and that the Dutch have the same feeling concerning the victims of MH17.
The German claim is also known in the Netherlands. Comment from the dutch criminal investigation team is that they have the same information and they hint that the Germans jump to conclusions. In short, they want to keep their cards close to the chest, while dutch parlement wants a public hearing.... Different from an air crash investigation, which can end with a 'most probable cause', a criminal investigation should be more rocksolid, because it has to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Think about the effort on PA 103.
At this moment all but 20 victims have been identified, which increases the believe that Ukraine recovery crews carried out their work rather thorough.
However, from at least one victim nothing has been recovered yet. Her uncle was the first dutch next of kin to visit the crash site, searching his niece. He only stayed for a short time, because there is still fighting going on there, especially in the yet unsearched area's.
I will add links later
Has anyone thought that the 20 odd missing are located in the burnt out centre section and Engines, burnt beyond recognition and unless the site is excavated they won't be found.
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Patience is a good thing.
For Blackbird69, ACMS and Lena, Kiev:
Did any of you receive an email that the identification proces of the victims has been finished? Did they already run out of material to examine?
Did any of you receive an email that the identification proces of the victims has been finished? Did they already run out of material to examine?
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To say a 1000 posts and no facts is wrong.
The photographs and consequent reconstructions were (and still are) very informative, they showed point position of missile to aircraft without doubt, they also showed an airborne break up had occurred, and in what order.
The photographs and consequent reconstructions were (and still are) very informative, they showed point position of missile to aircraft without doubt, they also showed an airborne break up had occurred, and in what order.