MH17 down near Donetsk

[tdracer]

Re comments crew might have "heard" the missile detonation. Quite unlikely with supersonic shrapnel impacting cockpit area in advance of the sound wave.

True, but there would be the sounds from the shrapnel impacts - hence the 'sudden loud noise'. Depending on exactly how fast the CVR lost power, there might be some initial sounds of decompression/breakup as well, but we're talking small fractions of a second. The "WHAT'S THAT" would be if one of the pilots spotted the approaching missile.

All in all, it's unlikely the FDR/CVR will tell us much of anything we don't already know (or at least strongly suspect).

[Hyperveloce]

Originally Posted by tdracer

It does, but the FDR only updates each parameter once per second, sequencing through the thousands of recorded parameters every second (a common error when interpreting FDR data is assuming everything in a 'frame' is recorded at the same instant - within a 'frame' there can be as much as a one second shift).

Once per second ?! Aren't they both low and high sampling rate channels (for the acceleration increments) within the FDR ?

[lomapaseo]

What the human brain thinks it hears in an explosion is significantly delayed from what actually happens. Even area mikes get clipped and discerning a frequency content is almost impossible if the source is close.

If however the explosion is in the back of the plane the mikes might have a chance at detecting the arrival of multiple airborne and structural waves arriving at different times. Of course it still needs to be recorded and that's iffy as well. In other major explosive events most of the signature was electrical ringing as the wires were cut.

[Lon More]

Discussion on Dutch tv that Marechaussee troops will provide protection for the investigators.

[gwillie]

Just caught a CNN live interview with Michael Bociurkiw from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe....an additional, very large, almost intact piece of fuselage has been found in a heavily wooded area - some pictures were shown, no video - apparently his team is still locating human remains.

'Can't find any print reports of any of this......perhaps too 'fresh'.

[SAMPUBLIUS]

Estimate of warhead location when fragmented

from my armchair and looking at the photos of cockpit frames AND the photo of a wing segment which shows the red circled ' attach safety line here" with apparently skidding type penetrations by shrapnel - a guess would be the detonation took place slightly above or at the level the upper wing surface. This would seem to comport with some comments that the BUC is designed to hit from above. Had it been on its way up and exploded below the wing level, its a bit unlikely to have shrapnel skid along the upper surface . Safety lines are not usually attached below the wing .

[JamesT73J]

Curiously if you look at the remnants of the flight deck floor there appears to be shrapnel damage underneath where the commander's chair is, also one of the crew seats. I wondered how it got there as it's the only bit of the interior photographs I've seen that appear to show it, unless the detonation was very near the front.

They are in the Akkerman pictures.

[OleOle]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

They are in the Akkerman pictures.

Stumbled over it too. This one is the largest edition:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3894/...85c6e268_o.jpg

For Orientation:
Boeing 777-3D7 - Large Preview - AirTeamImages.com

In the Akkerman picture the a/c nose would be toward 4 o'clock of the image. In the foreground there is a perforated window frame.

I'm puzzled of how locally concentrated the shrapnel marks are:

This image has the tires of the forward undercarriage unpunctured?
Could the silvery thing to the extreme left be the antennae of the weather radar?

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/...c4e41b8b_o.jpg

P.S.: Can't be the weather radar, this is the starboard side, nose is to the right.

[Caygill]

Russian Defense Ministry take rather undiplomatic tone (video): Most US evidence is based on social media posts

[Lonewolf_50]

a. From what I can discern via web (UNCLAS) sources, and my old memory,
the SA-11 (SA-N-7 which I was more familiar with is in the same family) warhead
is HE/Frag, and is capable of the "up to down" or "up and over" engagement geometry in the end game.
Granted, a non maneuvering heavy may not need to be so engaged, but I suspect it is an option.
b. This is handy if your target is a maneuvering jet (fighter, attack, etc)
that changes it's movement vector in three dimensions (including down) as part of evasive maneuvering.
c. Don't recall how susceptible it is to chaff ... I suspect it depends on the cut of the chaff.
d. Not sure if that is how it typically engages a target, but that might explain
what SAMPUBLIUS was referring to in terms of the damage pattern.
e. The above is subject to errors in both my memory and what is (in open sources) available.
f. Note: Whomever is posting pictures, please compress the files and repost them.
They are way too big and are expanding the window frame which makes viewing the web page difficult.

[OleOle]

Originally Posted by toaddy

What is that large brown thing with the rectangular openings in it ?

It's the floor of the cockpit. See link in my post above.

[toaddy]

It was the floor, I spotted the seat. It looked so big I didn't consider the floor. Thanks. All this debris looks like it was bulldozed up into a pile.

[Mudman]

Seems to me there's a lot of fuselage skin missing from the images of the cockpit area. Perhaps it was removed or perhaps it landed elsewhere but all I see is pretty much the floor down of this whole section.

Interesting video showing workers cutting into part of this.

[oldoberon]

Originally Posted by Mudman

Jeroen Akkermans has uploaded a 4th album of photos. This set contains close up image of the cockpit skin piece seen leaning against a street lamp.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...h/14705660266/

on images 131,132,137,138 there are number of very new looking filters, part of the cargo?

[Poimier]

Mickjoebill – excuse me, since you raised the matter, I might understand your viewpoint, I think, but when I was watching that sequence - the unloading of the coffins, I found the trumpet call most moving and I venture to suggest, from my knowledge of the Netherlands, all there would have recognised immediately the meaning of the plangent notes, so well played, as a moving tribute to the innocents who died.

As a matter of interest, wiki asserts that Taps originates in Holland.

I agree with passegiata and very much doubt you see this grievous event in a military light. BTW, I’m not looking for a contretemps.

[OleOle]

On this photo (already linked above).
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/...c4e41b8b_o.jpg
Any ideas on the horizontal cut of the skin? It has a very characteristic saw tooth pattern. Is that just shear along the stringer?

And on the other photo of the flight deck debris:
Almost right in the center is a fragment of the two central windshields with one wiper still attached. See here for comparison:
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/ima.../28/246196.jpg
Shrapnel marks there are very tiny.

[McGinty]

The rest of the frame of that windshield with the wiper attached is at the bottom of the same picture. Someone who is good at Photoshop may be able to cut and paste and produce a reconstruction of the whole portside windshield. Completely peppered with shrapnel.

See post 772.

[tdracer]

Once per second ?! Aren't they both low and high sampling rate channels (for the acceleration increments) within the FDR ?

Disclaimer, my expertise is engines, not FDR. But I've looked at lots and lots of FDR data over the years and I've never seen a parameter that was recorded at more than 'once per frame' within a one second frame (usually this has been for anomalies such as an engine shutdown or similar a anomaly, but also for a handful of crashes).
Heck, I consider myself lucky if most of the parameters I'm interested in are actually recorded, and at once/second (one incident, engine parameters were recorded every 64 seconds - for an event that lasted less than a minute ). Digital Flight Data Recorders have improved hugely over the last 30 years - way more parameters recorded at a higher update rate (during the investigation of the BA38 777 that landed short at Heathrow, I was pleasantly surprised to see the FDR recorded the fuel metering valve position - so we could definitely determine that the fuel metering valve opened but fuel flow failed to increase). Leaps and bounds better than the original FDRs that recorded a couple dozen parameters on foil


All that being said, a 200+ ton aircraft doesn't change direction that fast. Looking at 1/second data normally produces very good indications of what the aircraft was experiencing. I've seen indications of jet wake and wing vortex encounters that were pretty obvious from 1/second data.


When it's all said on done - while FDRs are hugely more capable than they were 20 years ago, there is still a limit to how much data and at what update rate. 99.9% of the time, 1/second is adequate provided the necessary parameters are recorded - so the emphasis has been on more parameters rather then fewer parameters at a high update rate. Further, to get meaningful data for something like a MH17 missile strike, you need 20 or more updates per second - something we only get with dedicated flight test data system.


If it was up to me, I'd be looking at a zero risk way to keep the FDR powered for a meaningful length of time after main bus power was lost - ideally something like capacitors that could power for another 10 minutes or so. Although it probably would make no difference in this case (the FDR on a 777 gets all it's data via AIMS, which was likely knocked out an instant after the missile strike), there have been a number if incidents where the FDR lost power well before the actual crash.

[Wantion]

Cockpit Panel Damage

[JamesT73J]

The white painted area below the windshield is burnt to a gun metal gray.

Speculatively, I would guess the missile fused very close and slightly above the port side of the nose, and this is where the break up began.

Why?

The port window cockpit window frame is severely damaged, the skin panel is heavily sooted and perforated, the commander's floor shows evidence of shrapnel damage. The remaining glass laminate has signs of soot.

There is a photograph of the crown skin that is sooted and shows over pressure where the skin has been dished in between the supporting structure frame.

One crew seat is visible at the cockpit crash site, the other was possibly ejected early in the event. Or perhaps it was taken or moved during the recovery.

There's a huge amount of structure missing from the crucial part of the aeroplane - the front - and I hope the investigation turns it all up.