MH17 down near Donetsk
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From: .
It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.
Joined: Jun 2001
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any Dutch PPRUNErs? What does the Dutch "man on the street" want to see happen now?
The site is a disgrace for humanity. People looted suitcases of the almost 300 who died. OVSE observers were not allowed to enter all of the crash site. Just allowed to watch from a distance. Rebels told them not to enter the fields. 48 hours after the crash bodies are rotten. That is reality. Evidence has probably taken away by rebels who control the area.
Dutch are very angry about that.
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: Belgium
I am from Belgium. This is so sad, there simply are no words for it.
Drunk and armed rebels preventing an observation team to enter the site?
FURIOUS ! is way to soft for what we feel.
But then?
Who is ready to launch an International military operation to secure the site? Within 24 hrs?
Are the Dutch, Malasians, Australians ready to drop 2.000 military in the region? NOW !!!!
How long would it take to organise an opp like that?
And? What will be the result?
Our hands are bound.
The ONLY people that could do something are the Russians.
They shoulld open their heart to this human tragedy "NOW" and send a Russian army into the region to teach those rebels some manners.
This is so . . . . sorry, there are no words left.
Drunk and armed rebels preventing an observation team to enter the site?
FURIOUS ! is way to soft for what we feel.
But then?
Who is ready to launch an International military operation to secure the site? Within 24 hrs?
Are the Dutch, Malasians, Australians ready to drop 2.000 military in the region? NOW !!!!
How long would it take to organise an opp like that?
And? What will be the result?
Our hands are bound.
The ONLY people that could do something are the Russians.
They shoulld open their heart to this human tragedy "NOW" and send a Russian army into the region to teach those rebels some manners.
This is so . . . . sorry, there are no words left.
Joined: Jan 2001
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
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From: Clarty Waters, UK
Reading the BBC today, it's impossible not to feel anger at the stories of children's bodies strewn over the landscape surrounded by their toys and books, their lives cut short in the most dreadful manner at the hands of trigger happy irregulars. And it is now being reported that a disabled child in the UK has been orphaned by the crash of MH017. But what makes me feel even more angry is the behaviour of those whose admiration and support for these so called rebels, and their Russian sponsors, blinds them to the enormity of this crime. What really matters is who pulled the trigger, by whose authority, and how they came by the means to do so. And yet these apologists - several of whom have been regular contributors to this thread - seek only to deny rebel complicity, or to deflect blame onto others.
298 innocent people have died, but certain people only seek to defend the perpetrators. I don't know how they sleep at night....
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: US/EU
Dutch banks act on MH17 credit card looting reports
Amsterdam (AFP) - Dutch banks said Saturday they were taking "preventative measures" after reports of credit cards being looted from the Ukrainian crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, where 192 Dutch citizens died.
Dutch banks act on MH17 credit card looting reports
Dutch banks act on MH17 credit card looting reports
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From: Living Room
I'm sure Putin is already toying with this idea. Using the situation around the crash site as pretext for the Russian army to enter East Ukraine as "stabilising" force. And then staying there.
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From: Finland
Looting of dead peoples credit cards?
Beyond despicable.
Beyond despicable.
Both Ukraine and Russia is spreading these speculation to feed their political own agenda. We really need to look at facts and start behave as ppruners.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: 50+ north
I am totally appalled by the loss of innocent lives but I feel that I need to ask a number of questions.
Accepting that there were attempts by apparently Russian backed elements to break away from Ukraine, the incident took place in Ukrainian airspace, where Ukraine still has safety accountability.
Were the Ukrainian government aware, prior to the incident, that the opposition forces were equipped with a missile system that could preduice the safety of traffic flying over the country at high levels? If they were, why did they not take immediate action to declare a temporary restricted/prohibited area, thereby forcing civil air carriers to avoid the airspace?
As an ICAO Contracting State, Ukraine's Air Traffic Management System is required to operate in accordance with a Safety Management System, did this fail?
Accepting that there were attempts by apparently Russian backed elements to break away from Ukraine, the incident took place in Ukrainian airspace, where Ukraine still has safety accountability.
Were the Ukrainian government aware, prior to the incident, that the opposition forces were equipped with a missile system that could preduice the safety of traffic flying over the country at high levels? If they were, why did they not take immediate action to declare a temporary restricted/prohibited area, thereby forcing civil air carriers to avoid the airspace?
As an ICAO Contracting State, Ukraine's Air Traffic Management System is required to operate in accordance with a Safety Management System, did this fail?
Joined: May 2004
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From: Ташкент
We need some objectivity here.
Their is no evidence that either the separatists nor their alleged Russian sponsors are responsible for this, and any reports by OSCE observers need to be taken within the context of their agenda, they are not as many imagine totally unbiased.
I would also take with a pinch of salt the reports of drunk separatists shooting their guns whilst swigging from bottles as they loot passenger belongings. Somebody is pushing their agenda it seems.
We even have the US arguing (quite rightly) for a full independent investigation and then in the next sentence stating that this was the fault (indirectly or directly) of the Russian Federation.
What we don't have is any facts.
Their is no evidence that either the separatists nor their alleged Russian sponsors are responsible for this, and any reports by OSCE observers need to be taken within the context of their agenda, they are not as many imagine totally unbiased.
I would also take with a pinch of salt the reports of drunk separatists shooting their guns whilst swigging from bottles as they loot passenger belongings. Somebody is pushing their agenda it seems.
We even have the US arguing (quite rightly) for a full independent investigation and then in the next sentence stating that this was the fault (indirectly or directly) of the Russian Federation.
What we don't have is any facts.
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Newcastle NI
Putin wont want the black boxes in Russia, it only would cause more problems than he has right now.
I predict
1 Black boxes will not been seen again
2 the Buk is back in Russia and will be buried/torched
3 the team who fired the missile will likewise be dead by now and buried
4 no trace of the missile will be found (specialist cleaner will have been on site with hours)
5 The US & Russia will have launch co-ordinates to within a metre
6 not a single person or group will ever face trail
7 MA will be bust within a month
8 further sanctions will be applied to Russia
9 Germany will continue to buy gas and ship Merc's
10 France will deliver the warships on order to Russia
11 Chelsea will still be owned by a Russian
12 Obama will draw another red line
13 Final report that it was likely that the T7 was destroyed by a SAM but who fired it remains uncertain in the absence of an individual or equipment
14 Pprune will move on to the next story..............
I predict
1 Black boxes will not been seen again
2 the Buk is back in Russia and will be buried/torched
3 the team who fired the missile will likewise be dead by now and buried
4 no trace of the missile will be found (specialist cleaner will have been on site with hours)
5 The US & Russia will have launch co-ordinates to within a metre
6 not a single person or group will ever face trail
7 MA will be bust within a month
8 further sanctions will be applied to Russia
9 Germany will continue to buy gas and ship Merc's
10 France will deliver the warships on order to Russia
11 Chelsea will still be owned by a Russian
12 Obama will draw another red line
13 Final report that it was likely that the T7 was destroyed by a SAM but who fired it remains uncertain in the absence of an individual or equipment
14 Pprune will move on to the next story..............
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Finland
Hopefully this is not off topic, but here is RT's Abby Martin on the tragedy. You decide if this is propaganda or not: RT - Breaking The Set
(mind you this is a day old).
(mind you this is a day old).
Joined: May 2002
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From: MA
Let's All Remember This is an Aviation Board
Way too many posts that deal with the politics of the Ukraine conflict... let's keep this thread at least modestly focused on the disaster and the eventual investigation. That is what this board is supposed to be about.
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From: UK
The accident happened over Ukraine territory, as a result, the Ukraine is responsible for the safety of all its overflying traffic.
Sims Fly Virtually
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From: Used to be 3rd Sand Dune from the Left - But now I'm somewhere else somewhere else.
Gentlemen,
We are getting nowhere with all of the "political comments". I have been trying to follow the events in Ukraine for some months and admittedly don't fully understand them.
However, this forum is designated Professional Pilots (which I am not, as my tag suggests, and why I very rarely post outside of JB). We should not, IMHO, be commenting on the politics of the situation, but on the mechanics of what actually happened.
Was it a "heavy" SAM? Is there proof of where it came from? How can the evidence related to the event be collected, and the bodies and belongings of 300 innocent souls be secured.
Other than that, the reason (as I understand it) is not, and has never been, for an "accident investigation" is not to apportion blame, but to "ensure that it never happens again", ATC and NOTAM procedures are worthy of considerations (and I speak as a Silver FF on a Mid-East airline here) but the politics of Ukraine, Russsia, etc really have no palce on PPRuNe - or am I I naive?
We are getting nowhere with all of the "political comments". I have been trying to follow the events in Ukraine for some months and admittedly don't fully understand them.
However, this forum is designated Professional Pilots (which I am not, as my tag suggests, and why I very rarely post outside of JB). We should not, IMHO, be commenting on the politics of the situation, but on the mechanics of what actually happened.
Was it a "heavy" SAM? Is there proof of where it came from? How can the evidence related to the event be collected, and the bodies and belongings of 300 innocent souls be secured.
Other than that, the reason (as I understand it) is not, and has never been, for an "accident investigation" is not to apportion blame, but to "ensure that it never happens again", ATC and NOTAM procedures are worthy of considerations (and I speak as a Silver FF on a Mid-East airline here) but the politics of Ukraine, Russsia, etc really have no palce on PPRuNe - or am I I naive?
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From: In an ever changing place
Nemrytter
I disagree. Our data shows that the most frequent route for MH17, used on around 50 flights this year, would have taken the aircraft through CBs that reached approx. FL360. The northerly path that MH17 took on this day (used by 3 other MH17 flights this year) avoided this and several other CBs.
I disagree. Our data shows that the most frequent route for MH17, used on around 50 flights this year, would have taken the aircraft through CBs that reached approx. FL360. The northerly path that MH17 took on this day (used by 3 other MH17 flights this year) avoided this and several other CBs.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,396
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From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Was it a "heavy" SAM? Is there proof of where it came from?
Now why President Obama has not released the proof, is anyone's guess.
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: East of Eden
Going back to aviation aspects of the matter.
One thing I would really, really like to hear would be the ATC transcripts of communications with MH17 over Ukraine. Certainly, everyone should be interested in that.
Here is why I am interested in it.
1. ICAO, FAA, etc. excluded Crimea area from passenger traffic - and this was the route heavily used for Asia bound airplanes. The reasons were political - the West refusing to recognize Russian annexation of Crimea. As far as safety goes - apart from bureaucratic confusion who should be doing the ATC with Russia now considering Crimea its territory and Ukraine never agreeing to it, there never was any military activity over Crimea.
2. From flight-paths I have seen, MH and other carriers were still taking the Crimea routes nevertheless.
3. The moment heavy SAM action starts happening further north, they no longer take Crimea routes but fly right through the areas of SAM activities. Coincidence? Did they do it on their own or did someone "help" them to do make that decision?
4. The timing coincides with heavy Ukrainian military activities in the air - need to resupply their units on the border with Russia, to put "rebel" areas under siege and cut them off from possible resupply from Russia. Not a bad military tactics, but clearly leading to attempts to prevent that by rebels.
5. Regardless how one feels about Russia/Crimea etc. I think we should expect regulators to care for passengers, not play politics. If someone wants to get themselves involved in the conflict, he has a right to do that - with their own bodies and lives. But I doubt the MH17 passengers wanted to play a role in that conflict.
6. I doubt that the pilots can have complete view of the situation on the ground, even if they pay attention. Ironically, hearing of the SAM activities in Ukraine, relying on ICAO maps they could have assumed they needed to go further North, away from the Crimea exclusion zone, which was exactly the WRONG thing to do at the moment.
7. Is it possible that the Ukrainians wanted the civilian traffic there as shields for their military transports? Well, it is. From their point of view, it is a win-win situation, no matter what happens.
Anyone here has more info on the matter????
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...mh17.html?_r=0
One thing I would really, really like to hear would be the ATC transcripts of communications with MH17 over Ukraine. Certainly, everyone should be interested in that.
Here is why I am interested in it.
1. ICAO, FAA, etc. excluded Crimea area from passenger traffic - and this was the route heavily used for Asia bound airplanes. The reasons were political - the West refusing to recognize Russian annexation of Crimea. As far as safety goes - apart from bureaucratic confusion who should be doing the ATC with Russia now considering Crimea its territory and Ukraine never agreeing to it, there never was any military activity over Crimea.
2. From flight-paths I have seen, MH and other carriers were still taking the Crimea routes nevertheless.
3. The moment heavy SAM action starts happening further north, they no longer take Crimea routes but fly right through the areas of SAM activities. Coincidence? Did they do it on their own or did someone "help" them to do make that decision?
4. The timing coincides with heavy Ukrainian military activities in the air - need to resupply their units on the border with Russia, to put "rebel" areas under siege and cut them off from possible resupply from Russia. Not a bad military tactics, but clearly leading to attempts to prevent that by rebels.
5. Regardless how one feels about Russia/Crimea etc. I think we should expect regulators to care for passengers, not play politics. If someone wants to get themselves involved in the conflict, he has a right to do that - with their own bodies and lives. But I doubt the MH17 passengers wanted to play a role in that conflict.
6. I doubt that the pilots can have complete view of the situation on the ground, even if they pay attention. Ironically, hearing of the SAM activities in Ukraine, relying on ICAO maps they could have assumed they needed to go further North, away from the Crimea exclusion zone, which was exactly the WRONG thing to do at the moment.
7. Is it possible that the Ukrainians wanted the civilian traffic there as shields for their military transports? Well, it is. From their point of view, it is a win-win situation, no matter what happens.
Anyone here has more info on the matter????
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...mh17.html?_r=0
Last edited by SadPole; 19th July 2014 at 19:31. Reason: Link with maps added.
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From: uk
To those who already know what happened, it provides information about US surveillance capabilities in the area - release undesirable.
To the ordinary Russians, and to those elsewhere who do not believe the US, it will be US propaganda, fabricated, will not be believed - hence release is of no benefit.
To those in the west who believe US statements it will be redundant because Obama already gave the answers - hence release is of no benefit.
