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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 21st Jul 2014, 19:14
  #661 (permalink)  
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surely the nail in the coffin is the tweet by the rebels claiming to have shot down an aircraft..?

coming from the same account they have tweeted from for months, and then deleted soon after it became apparent they had messed up.

you can bet twitter has had a pretty close look at that account for any tampering and would be screaming to high heaven if they knew anything

in regards to the above "news article" alex jones could make a conspiracy out of me going to the grocery store. completely non credible
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 19:17
  #662 (permalink)  
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RE: Oleole.
There´s just a catch, the damage on the right side wing doesn't match only 1 missile strike, so the question is if there was 2 Missiles..?

And why is some holes going inwards-while other going outwards....?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 19:24
  #663 (permalink)  
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The countries with satellite and sensitive surveillance assets are likely hoping that explosive material residue and warhead fragmentation holes in both the plane parts and bodies will confirm an AA missile and squelch any doubts without having to cough up data that would show means and methods. The photos above seem like a good start.

The post (at 1522 GMT) by Igor Strelkovo aka Igor Girkin on the VKontake social media site after the shootdown (at 1415 GMT) bragging and taking credit for it is hard to ignore. He said it fell near Torez, near Progress mine, in an open field and that "civilians were not injured. We have video." It was posted so fast they didn't wait to confirm what was shot down. The post was changed at 1610 GMT after it was discovered to be a civilian airliner, it now basically said...'it wasn't us.' At 1656 GMT he added ... we don't have such weapons. Social media is a double edged sword these days. Luckily the internet doesn't have an erase button, once posted...it's there forever.

Last edited by toaddy; 21st Jul 2014 at 20:11.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 19:33
  #664 (permalink)  
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Russian separatists did not think that would happen, they would shoot down other aircraft who was there to fly below the Boeing BUT slightly different route.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 19:50
  #665 (permalink)  
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"Was that really the vector of the missile ?"

makes sense, since the plane was allegedly moving towards the missile(at a slight angle) and BUK missile explodes as soon as it gets to the proximity of the aircraft...
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 20:36
  #666 (permalink)  
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by tsenis - Post #586:

May be you can take a look:
  1. who is vandalizing
  2. who is not

also may be take a look at seperatists leader interview regarding the situation on the ground and how difficult is for them to handle it, lets see their point of view before we jump into conclusions

Don't take me wrong, myself don't have any conclusions yet, I just wait for all this info-war dust to settle down.
Oh please.

BBC News - MH17 air crash: Fears crash site evidence could be lost

Who's removing evidence from the crash site?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 20:38
  #667 (permalink)  
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UN troops

The only way to do this right would have been to send UN troops right away with all the proper equipment. And if any of the sides objected, then say who and why refused access. None of it was done.
Yes, well would be very nice but the small problem here is that UN troops do not exist -the UN does not maintain a readily deploy-able military force. The UN can pass a resolution to deploy international troops under its aegis that member states would contribute for the particular mission. This process takes a considerable amount of time and is therefore not a viable option here.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 20:40
  #668 (permalink)  
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But that was not the only plane to fly A87 TAMAK SARNA that day in fact an AIR INDIA flight was 24 miles ( 90 seconds) away
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 20:57
  #669 (permalink)  
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For crying out loud! can people stop moaning about the flight path, it was planned and approved and flown by hundreds of flights in the week leading up to this tragedy, although the pilots deviated from the exact route they did nothing outside of SOP.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no room for it here.

This plane was downed by pro-Russian militants (probably Russian army) using hardware supplied by Russia in Russian (separatist) controlled airspace. Hardware that was intended to hit Ukrainian Military Aircraft. They may have thought they were aiming for a Ukrainian Military Aircraft but they hit a civilian aircraft instead.

Results of this:
What will happen to Russia? Nothing.
What will happen to the commander whose men took this plane down?: He might end up in The Hague in 10 years.
Are Malaysian Airlines at fault? Are you retarded?
Will the victims families sue the Russian Government? Yes.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 21:05
  #670 (permalink)  
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I don't see somebody stealing evidence in this video.
If you mean the "black" box somebody has to pick it, as matter of fact I believe it is been delivered to the Malaysians as we speak.
Besides if the Dutch are satisfied then I can't complain myself.

May be this journalist is also tampering ?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 21:06
  #671 (permalink)  
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Would an Su25 engage in a pull up manoeuvre to allow an R60 homing missile to lock on to a higher altitude target? The Russians allege the military aircraft their radar painted began to climb just before MH17 went down.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 21:26
  #672 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AreOut View Post
????????? ???????????? ???????? : ???????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????

official site of russian army

on the last picture they claim it's from Krasnoarmeysk which is under ukrainian control from 11th May, I don't think they would put it on official site without checking it

the pictures before are also interesting and tend to put the blame on ukrainian army however if I got that right from my bad russian they don't have hard evidence only allegations, mainly that there was a Sukhoi fighter very near 777 and rebels might have mistaken their goal or thought Sukhoi is escorting the AN26 transport aircraft
Makes no sense (although my Russian is practically non-existent).

- the images / diagrams show a 777 with 4 engines...
- pictures show (claimed) Ukrainian ground based arms, and then a Ukrainian fighter trailing the 777, but why would Ukraine target their own fighter from ground, or why would they use a large SAM to down an a/c if they already have a fighter on the target ?
- claiming there was a Ukrainian Su that confused the rebels into shooting it down makes no sense when the Russians / rebels also claim that they didn't do it and that they only have MANPADS ?
- elsewhere they claim Ukraine shot it down thinking it was Putin's plane - as if Putin's plane is going to fly over Ukraine with a Ukrainian Su next to it ?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 21:44
  #673 (permalink)  
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MoD conference

The photos published on mil.ru are the same photos that were shown on Russian MoD conference today (Russian with English translation). Key thesis they were talking about, based on ATC radar data, satellite photos and their own analysis:
  1. MH17 had an unexplainable deviation from the air corridor just before it crashed - just before Donetsk it went 14 km north, leaving the corridor, then apparently tried to return, and then was shot down
  2. Ukrainian army had a number of "Buk" squads present in the area whose range covered MH17 crash location
  3. There was Su-25 climbing towards the MH17 that got closest at 3-5 km distance from the Boeing
  4. technically the Su-25 might reach 10 km and could be equipped with air-to-air rockets

This is more-less what they said. At least items 1 and 4 should be easy to verify, others are practically unverifiable.

Last edited by p2re; 21st Jul 2014 at 22:03. Reason: style
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 21:52
  #674 (permalink)  
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I can't find confirmation that the black boxes were handed over at 7pm UK time, as agreed. Anyone know anything?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 22:09
  #675 (permalink)  
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@tsenis -

Did you not hear the pro-Russian militia officer say that they were taking things from passengers, putting them on a truck for sorting out later?

Did you see the pro-Russian militia dumping out backpacks and rummaging through the personal effects of passengers?

Did you see the part where the pro-Russian militia were talking about looking for memory sticks to collect - because of the data they might contain?

And you accuse a bumbling UK reporter of vandalizing the scene by going through a single suitcase?

Now - I agree that the bumbling reporter should not be touching anything at the site and has inappropriately disturbed what I would call a crime scene. But - to suggest the pro-Russian militia are doing nothing wrong is a complete joke. Are you that blinded by dogma?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 22:31
  #676 (permalink)  
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From the BBC:

Ukraine rebels hand over black boxes
Breaking news
Eastern Ukraine rebels have handed over two MH17 black box flight recorders to Malaysian experts, reports say
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 22:48
  #677 (permalink)  
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For crying out loud! can people stop moaning about the flight path, it was planned and approved and flown by hundreds of flights in the week leading up to this tragedy, although the pilots deviated from the exact route they did nothing outside of SOP.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no room for it here.
pretty much disagree as much as it is humanly possible to do.

I come from a military aviation background, so maybe I see things differently, but in my line of business you don't fly over a SAM site which you know is operating below period.

In what universe is this hindsight? It is open air knowledge to anyone with an internet connection that there were SAMs in hands of gung-ho barely trained operators in this area. Likewise, the SAM envelopes were easily obtainable, without recourse to military intelligence.

Why do you think vulnerable civilian airliners with a duty of care to the passengers have some sort of immunity to hostile action and/or cockup/incompetence?

Takes some sort of hand-in-the-sand blinkered stupidity, to front up in hostile airspace with this you-can't touch-me I'm on an airway attitude.

We have have one thing in common though. I too hope the lawyers get stuck in...but its the aviation authorities and airline I want to see sued back to the stone age.

Complacency, driven by economic convenience IMO.


And yeah, the murderous thugs that shot them down are evil beyond belief, but that's war for you...trouble is we've stopped calling it war now...that's an inconvenience as well.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 22:52
  #678 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 23:00
  #679 (permalink)  
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Looks like the pinger is missing from the FDR, it's still attached to the CVR.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 23:01
  #680 (permalink)  
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Agree with TwoOneFour regarding the "amazing" Russian press-conference.
Showing a stationary primary target after MH17 was hit/got into trouble. They really think a SU25 can hover? And why did the target show up just after MH17 was hit - where was it before? Suddenly they can track it after MH17 disappears? What about the theory it could be a big part falling off the 777 giving a primary blip? Amazing how naive the Russkies think the rest of the world is, showing this as proof. Our primary radar (for civilian ATC) can pick up large flock of birds. A big piece from an airliner would naturally give a primary echo.

Regarding the Spanish controller Carlos who supposedly knew two Ukranian planes shot down MH17 - hes another piece in the Russian media war.
Slik ble den «spanske «flygelederen Carlos» et symbol på Russlands feilslåtte propaganda - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
His twitter account has been debunked and is now closed. Same account was used during the Euromaidan-protests.

On the other side we have experts saying the BUK would easily identify a civilian airliner and its transponder... Really? More likely a lone BUK not in link with other radar systems can only track primary targets - not distinguishing between military, civilian, flock of birds...whatever...

Which side fired the missile is another matter. But showing evidence like this is embarrasing imho.
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