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Old 19th Jul 2014, 12:37   #441 (permalink)
 
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Caygill, those 10 "questions" from RT are the most a ridiculous set of propaganda which is only believable for Russian apologists.

As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.

And finally, here is a RT journalist who has resigned due to RTs factually wrong coverage of this destruction of a civilian airliner:
Russian TV reporter quits over crash coverage
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 12:45   #442 (permalink)
 
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I'd be very concerned re a cover up of evidence and wouldnt be suprised if the black boxes did a runner. It doesnt mask the plain fact that a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 12:57   #443 (permalink)
 
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>>Those scars looks rather like something hit or slided on that surface - possibly other plane fragments hit that fragment when it was desintegrating in the air - than holes/marks left by small shrapnels from exploding warhead.

>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.

It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 13:06   #444 (permalink)

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Dutch tv just showing the investigators being threatened by rebel troops if they try to approach the main wreckage.
Seems a bit Obvious who's trying to hide a smoking gun

ienes thanks for the info on the Ts. I was about to ask the same question. Was the flight at FL330 on those days with the southerly routing or maybe stuck at FL290 and forced to route around
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 13:30   #445 (permalink)
 
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It seems with what we're hearing in the news indicates that a proper independent investigation is increasingly unlikely. Looting of the bodies and refusing access to the site for the proper authorities is inexcusable.

Whether or not the action by the rebels is orchestrated by Moscow remains to be seen, however the rebels need to be reigned in.

It's more than likely that the Americans know exactly where the missile came from and probably who fired it. This information will no doubt be shared with the countries directly affected. The question is what will the governments do about it?
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 13:44   #446 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air Jing
Caygill, those 10 "questions" from RT are the most a ridiculous set of propaganda which is only believable for Russian apologists.

As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.
Perhaps we can.
In the meantime, what would be wrong with serious answers to those 10 qestions? If the implied allegations can be dispelled by means of those answers, what would be wrong with that?
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 13:51   #447 (permalink)
 
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I can asnwer RT's question 1 straight away: Ukraine immediately blamed separatists because on 17 July they have been celebrating shooting down of an airplane using "Buk" missile. Just go to Google and search for Украина Торез Сбит транспортный АН 26 and you will find dozens of Russian (!) news on "An-26 shot down by separatists using a missile" published just 30 mins before it became evident it was MH17...
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 13:52   #448 (permalink)
 
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Then expect a full scale fight for the wreckage. The separatists are edgy, semi-trained ( apart from a core of serving Russian military ) and they also know that they f*cked up. Sending any form of Western military would be utter lunacy. Additionally, three days have now passed. I bet that the area has been searched for remains of the warhead etc etc ......
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:01   #449 (permalink)
 
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Sorry to specualate, but let's assume that the "rebels" actually shot down the plane, and nothing more to the story (no hiding fighters, etc).

These "rebels" are a very diverse gang. There are surely some gang-ho drunk hereos among them, but likewise there are some very hardcore battle hardened veterans from Afganistan, Chechnya, etc. Most importantly a significant amount of Ukranian forces defected or switched sides during the early stages of the conflict.

In short, there is no shortage among the "rebels" of people highly trained in these missile systems.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:10   #450 (permalink)
 
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The Dutch and Malaysians seem to have responded with a dignity and maturity to their loss of life.

By contrast the Western / Russia media are going at it like wolves.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:13   #451 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
OleOle
What would be the reasons to take a more northerly route this day?
No reason other than the airlines operations planning the most optimum route for the day.
We fly over that area often as do many other carriers, because it was deemed safe to civil traffic the same as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and many others.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:21   #452 (permalink)
 
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Shooting down of Ukrainian military aircraft at cruising altitude reflects ongoing es

So,given that this incident occured on July 14th,...

Pilots....you accept the Flight Plan!

Airline Navigation Departments,....you monitor and plan routes!

ICAO....you are responsible for advising us all!

There are plenty of people in the link,before the accountants.People who should be contributing to a safe operation.

My point here is...don't simply rely on the people above you in the link.

I don't need an official letter,addressed to me personally,to tell me that putting my hand into a flame will burn me!

Be Pro active!

How many airlines and airline pilots continued to overfly this area since July 14th!
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:34   #453 (permalink)
 
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MH17 down near Donetsk

Sky news have just reported the following;

Ukraine's counter-intelligence chief Vitaly Nada has said he has "compelling evidence" that Russian citizens were operating the missile battery that shot down MH17.

Not sure how the authorities would confirm this but it's not looking good for Russia
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:38   #454 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

These questions are so childish, that reminds me the boy with his dirty chocolate mouth, trying to blame his little brother for the stolen chocolate....


There are nearly 300 body needing to be identified, nearly 300 souls that need justice and nearly 300 families and beloved that need answers... And they are denying Osce inspectors access to the site..... True, they are not soldiers, they are criminals.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:43   #455 (permalink)
 
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It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:43   #456 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
>>Those scars looks rather like something hit or slided on that surface - possibly other plane fragments hit that fragment when it was desintegrating in the air - than holes/marks left by small shrapnels from exploding warhead.

>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.

It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
Definitely not damage from a Con-Rod warhead, as that would have a saw tooth pattern at the impact point if the rods were still connected. The rods will go through normal aircraft structure like a knife through soft butter, but if they hit anything substantial like an engine, undercarriage leg or major casting, the rods in that area will break apart and the damage will become very random. Anyhow the SA-11 / SA-17 isn’t fitted a Con-Rod warhead according to what information is on the internet, but a 50 to 70 lb Blast Fragmentation warhead. Con-Rod warheads are very effective against large targets or smaller targets with a weapon that is limited to a stern / head on attack profile (early Sidewinder or Sparrow) but if you want to engage the range of targets that the SA-11 / SA-17 can be employed against (ARM’s / Cruise Missiles / Helicopters / Supersonic Fighters/ Etc.) at all intercept geometries, a blast fragmentation warhead gives a much higher probability of a kill than a Con-Rod warhead does.

Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 19th Jul 2014 at 15:06.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:46   #457 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
The Dutch and Malaysians seem to have responded with a dignity and maturity to their loss of life.
Yes dignity ...

But what is worthy of leaving the bodies of 189 fellow to the scavengers ... with just as response messages of condolence
What is the reaction of the EU ... other than messages of condolence?
How humiliating for this country and the families of victims !
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:47   #458 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Nemrytter
It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.
Not that day, we were in the air at the time it happened, operating in the area just a bit further north.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 14:51   #459 (permalink)


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Buk with one missile missing - where is was seen

Video with Buk launcher with one missile missing
Source is 100% pro-ukrainian, 100% putin-free.

However, there is one small problem with location.
It was shot at Krasnoarmeisk, Dnepropetrovskaya st. 40.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 15:28   #460 (permalink)
 
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It's clear that the conflict between the pro-Russians and the Ukraine government is of much more importance to the military 'personnel' on the ground than respect for nearly 300 innocent people - 80 children! - whose bodies are rotting in the fields. Irrespective of what happens to that bit of Ukraine in the future, it will be hard to forget the lack of basic humanity being displayed here.
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