Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Question for anyone who knows.
If there was an electrical issue, such as short or fire, would ACARS not start sending out some faults? Being that most electrical issues are not short time scale events. By that I'm going on about heat to fire time scales.
If there was an electrical issue, such as short or fire, would ACARS not start sending out some faults? Being that most electrical issues are not short time scale events. By that I'm going on about heat to fire time scales.
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Fire?
Network
If the second scenario you have described is a possibility - why is there no radar tracking of the plane. I realise that the transponder was not transmitting so there was no identification as a civilian aircraft but surely an object like this is exactly what military radar is programmed to track. ie an object which is not transmitting an identification signal. Then surely they would know where to search, not the splattergun approach that is currently occurring.
If the second scenario you have described is a possibility - why is there no radar tracking of the plane. I realise that the transponder was not transmitting so there was no identification as a civilian aircraft but surely an object like this is exactly what military radar is programmed to track. ie an object which is not transmitting an identification signal. Then surely they would know where to search, not the splattergun approach that is currently occurring.
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Nitpicker.
Planetalking blog comment:
MH370: Logic says this isn't the mystery it's claimed to be | Plane Talking
Planetalking blog comment:
MH370: Logic says this isn't the mystery it's claimed to be | Plane Talking
Good article. But it begs the question why the authorities would be holding back on the information.
One possibility is the plane was hijacked and they thought it was going to be used as a missile, so they shot it down. That might cause some reticence to talk about it. The lack of flotsam and debris would then be because they are not telling us where it ended up.
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Has any one considered?
Of course they haven't considered a water landing, people are too busy being told what to think. The Lion Air plane was pounded by surf, multiple tide cycles, and pushed hundreds of metres along a reef over 4 or 5 days and still held on to its contents........
Nigel on Draft...that's why I asked for a 777 guy to answer. I know first hand about 737/747/330/340 etc.
On at least two of those you cannot access the c/b in flight, NOR CAN YOU SELECT VOX ON COM 3
On the 737 and 747 switching 3 to vox does not lock it there necessarily...some radio options default back to data after a few minutes.
See now why I wanted a definitive 777 answer?
On at least two of those you cannot access the c/b in flight, NOR CAN YOU SELECT VOX ON COM 3
On the 737 and 747 switching 3 to vox does not lock it there necessarily...some radio options default back to data after a few minutes.
See now why I wanted a definitive 777 answer?
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It's a bit depressing, seeing the way this has become a huge guessing game since there's very little hard information available.
What part of "Just wait until the wreckage is located, so that the information from the FDR and CVR can be read and evaluated," is so hard to understand?
What part of "Just wait until the wreckage is located, so that the information from the FDR and CVR can be read and evaluated," is so hard to understand?
Thread Starter
As sleazy and low rent sensationalist trash as `A Current Affair' may be - that's a story, and an important one.
There's no way those girls should have been on the flight deck under any circumstances.
There's no way those girls should have been on the flight deck under any circumstances.
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Good article. But it begs the question why the authorities would be holding back on the information.
One possibility is the plane was hijacked and they thought it was going to be used as a missile, so they shot it down. That might cause some reticence to talk about it. The lack of flotsam and debris would then be because they are not telling us where it ended up.
One possibility is the plane was hijacked and they thought it was going to be used as a missile, so they shot it down. That might cause some reticence to talk about it. The lack of flotsam and debris would then be because they are not telling us where it ended up.
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No ACARS messages of any serviceability issues with the aircraft. Or more likely, there were some ACARS messages delivered to MAS maintenance control, but MAS have not been able to make sense of them – and are thus not willing to release them to the public.
"There were no signals from ACARS from the time the aircraft disappeared," a source involved in the investigations said.
All Malaysia Airlines aircraft are equipped with continuous data monitoring system called the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) which transmits data automatically. Nevertheless, there were no distress calls and no information was relayed.
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one can regularly spot the Paracels from altitude, on a clear day, along this route (seen them myself @ FL35 and from average sea level). If I was an MH Skipper rehearsing scenario on Sim. then I may have considered this contingency. Must admit though, there was quite a few Vietnamiese fishing vessels at that location last time I was there at sea level.
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If we suppose that at the instant the FR24 return gives a 0ft reading that some structural damage has been done, what are the pilot's likely reaction?
Surely if the plane is still flying, a descent to below 10,000ft is done.
Then a turn towards the nearest possible landing area or airport.
So which way would he have gone? Draw a line from the FR24 0ft location and search along that line, would seem to be the most likely to find where he went.
Surely if the plane is still flying, a descent to below 10,000ft is done.
Then a turn towards the nearest possible landing area or airport.
So which way would he have gone? Draw a line from the FR24 0ft location and search along that line, would seem to be the most likely to find where he went.
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In my mind it's becoming glaringly obvious that only part of the available information is being made public.
ACARS - well, MA don't really say, do they?
RR maintenance center - dead silent on the issue, although they must know the timeline.
Boeing - possibly same as RR, depending on contract with MA
I'm not normally given to conspiracy theories, but I increasingly feel something bad happened that involved one of the powers that jostle for control of these waters in one way or another. And this takes a while to sort out behind the scenes....
IMHO all the talk about fake passports is a red herring - two asylum seekers who hoped for a better life and found an untimely death. The group who missed the flight - forget about it, happens every day.
I doubt we'll ever know the full story.
ACARS - well, MA don't really say, do they?
RR maintenance center - dead silent on the issue, although they must know the timeline.
Boeing - possibly same as RR, depending on contract with MA
I'm not normally given to conspiracy theories, but I increasingly feel something bad happened that involved one of the powers that jostle for control of these waters in one way or another. And this takes a while to sort out behind the scenes....
IMHO all the talk about fake passports is a red herring - two asylum seekers who hoped for a better life and found an untimely death. The group who missed the flight - forget about it, happens every day.
I doubt we'll ever know the full story.
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After reading with interest all the thread, must say that I am not an advocate of the terror act theories, it sounds too far fetched and the stolen passports looks more a coincidence than anything else.
On the other hand, it just occured to me that not long time ago Egypt Air had an emergency, on the ground fortunately, with an oxygen fire in the flight deck, eventually the airframe was written-off and by the photos I have seen, on the final report IIRC, the damage was quite extensive.
What are the odds of such an event happening again with MH370? I don't have the Egypt Air's report handy, but I guess some recomendation for parts change/inspection was made concerning the oxy system.
Just a thought
On the other hand, it just occured to me that not long time ago Egypt Air had an emergency, on the ground fortunately, with an oxygen fire in the flight deck, eventually the airframe was written-off and by the photos I have seen, on the final report IIRC, the damage was quite extensive.
What are the odds of such an event happening again with MH370? I don't have the Egypt Air's report handy, but I guess some recomendation for parts change/inspection was made concerning the oxy system.
Just a thought
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ACARS MU switches automatically between the VHF and SATCOM. Indeed the pilot can change VHF3 from DATA (default settings) to VOICE. But ACARS MU would then switch to SATCOM which there is no reference to a switch in cockpit to turn that off. At least I haven't found one 
B777 ACARS can communicate on text basis with ATC. Pilots can transmitt/confirm/receive messages trough ACARS ATC. This in case that there is a voice failure.
ACARS of the B777 is highly sophisticated. It is much more than a dummy text transmission tool.
B777 ACARS can communicate on text basis with ATC. Pilots can transmitt/confirm/receive messages trough ACARS ATC. This in case that there is a voice failure.
ACARS of the B777 is highly sophisticated. It is much more than a dummy text transmission tool.
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Valujet 592 hit the everglades near vertically at high speed after a cargo fire, virtually nothing was found on the surface, the largest piece of wreckage was the size of a football.
I still think this is a serious fire possibly from the cargo deck that happened to knock out comms first. I assume comms and ACARS etc still have to run down wiring to aerials on the hull. Why couldnt that wiring have been interrupted by fire before ACARS was aware of it.
For there to be very little debris in shallow waters then this aircraft cannot have broken up in flight otherwise debris would be floating everywhere. I suspect the airframe went into the sea intact, whether controlled ditching with rapid sinking or a high velocity impact. Who knows.
I still think this is a serious fire possibly from the cargo deck that happened to knock out comms first. I assume comms and ACARS etc still have to run down wiring to aerials on the hull. Why couldnt that wiring have been interrupted by fire before ACARS was aware of it.
For there to be very little debris in shallow waters then this aircraft cannot have broken up in flight otherwise debris would be floating everywhere. I suspect the airframe went into the sea intact, whether controlled ditching with rapid sinking or a high velocity impact. Who knows.
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Marine Radar - Malacca Straits Piracy
The Malacca Strait is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, at the beginning of this century it had a huge problem with piracy which resulted in LLoyds adding a 1% risk surcharge to shipping travelling through it.
Huge measures were taken by Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia to rectify the problem. Radar coverage was greatly increased and patrols were stepped up in the area.
Piracy has reduced markedly since those measures were introduced, but is still a problem, I believe an oil tanker was hijacked just last year.
Could the increased search activity in the Malacca Strait be the result of unidentified radar returns which have come to light after reviewing marine radar footage at a later date ???
I'm not overly familiar with the maritime radar systems which are employed in that region, but I would assume they would have the capability of detecting low flying aircraft. I know in the UK the marine radar coverage of the English Channel is used for just that purpose.
Having conducted business in Asia in the past I am well aware of the importance of " Saving Face " You only have to look at Fukushima to understand just what sort of lengths people will go to too save face.
Is it feasible that the Malaysian Airforce are embarrassed that MH370 managed to overfly the country without being detected, could that be the reason for not disclosing that primary radar returns were detected by the Navy in the Malaccan Strait ???
I would find it very hard to believe that such a localised search would be taking place in the Strait without some sort of evidence that the plane may have been in the area, but I'm baffled as to why they wouldn't disclose such information.
Huge measures were taken by Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia to rectify the problem. Radar coverage was greatly increased and patrols were stepped up in the area.
Piracy has reduced markedly since those measures were introduced, but is still a problem, I believe an oil tanker was hijacked just last year.
Could the increased search activity in the Malacca Strait be the result of unidentified radar returns which have come to light after reviewing marine radar footage at a later date ???
I'm not overly familiar with the maritime radar systems which are employed in that region, but I would assume they would have the capability of detecting low flying aircraft. I know in the UK the marine radar coverage of the English Channel is used for just that purpose.
Having conducted business in Asia in the past I am well aware of the importance of " Saving Face " You only have to look at Fukushima to understand just what sort of lengths people will go to too save face.
Is it feasible that the Malaysian Airforce are embarrassed that MH370 managed to overfly the country without being detected, could that be the reason for not disclosing that primary radar returns were detected by the Navy in the Malaccan Strait ???
I would find it very hard to believe that such a localised search would be taking place in the Strait without some sort of evidence that the plane may have been in the area, but I'm baffled as to why they wouldn't disclose such information.
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The terror organisations recognise that the sure way to win the current war they're waging against the West is to use the Ronald Reagan ploy of making the war simply too expensive for the other side to wage. If this turns out to be a terroist attack, it's clever, particularly if it can be repeated.
Someone, be it a terrorist who forced his way into the cockpit or a pilot who has been recruited or forced to co-operate with the terrorists, had to have enough knowledge of the 777 to know which nav and comm. functions to disable - and in a very short time - to cause it to disappear (in an electronic sense) in a matter of seconds. After that, it's just a question of getting the aircraft a long way away from the commonsense search area before ditching it or flying it deliberately into the sea to destroy it. (When your foot soldiers are willing to die for the cause, the possibilities that can be employed are endless.)
The effect of two or three similar disappearances will be huge. The incredible expense, both to governments and airlines, in just trying to find the missing hull, will eventually become crippling; the drop off in passengers, as airline travel becomes something less than 100% safe in the public's perception, will hurt the airlines' bottom line; the increased security measures will make airline travel an even more painful experience than it has become since 2001.
All will end up making travel very, very expensive, which means the bad guys will have won, for without easy and cheap air travel, Western society will not be what it has become over the last fifty years.
Someone, be it a terrorist who forced his way into the cockpit or a pilot who has been recruited or forced to co-operate with the terrorists, had to have enough knowledge of the 777 to know which nav and comm. functions to disable - and in a very short time - to cause it to disappear (in an electronic sense) in a matter of seconds. After that, it's just a question of getting the aircraft a long way away from the commonsense search area before ditching it or flying it deliberately into the sea to destroy it. (When your foot soldiers are willing to die for the cause, the possibilities that can be employed are endless.)
The effect of two or three similar disappearances will be huge. The incredible expense, both to governments and airlines, in just trying to find the missing hull, will eventually become crippling; the drop off in passengers, as airline travel becomes something less than 100% safe in the public's perception, will hurt the airlines' bottom line; the increased security measures will make airline travel an even more painful experience than it has become since 2001.
All will end up making travel very, very expensive, which means the bad guys will have won, for without easy and cheap air travel, Western society will not be what it has become over the last fifty years.
Beady Eye
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CPDLC is a whole different ball of wax.
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ACARS MU switches automatically between the VHF and SATCOM. Indeed the pilot can change VHF3 from DATA (default settings) to VOICE. But ACARS MU would then switch to SATCOM which there is no reference to a switch in cockpit to turn that off. At least I haven't found one
B777 ACARS can communicate on text basis with ATC. Pilots can transmitt/confirm/receive messages trough ACARS ATC. This in case that there is a voice failure.
ACARS of the B777 is highly sophisticated. It is much more than a dummy text transmission tool.
B777 ACARS can communicate on text basis with ATC. Pilots can transmitt/confirm/receive messages trough ACARS ATC. This in case that there is a voice failure.
ACARS of the B777 is highly sophisticated. It is much more than a dummy text transmission tool.
You can deselect ACARS satellite transmissions on the ACARS Manager page of the COMM>MANAGER menu of the MFD. A simple mouse click, but there should be no reason to do so unless they misread the bulletin about loss of VHF Datalink on BP V15... which is digressing as no relevance and only confusing this thread.
Also, an in-flight DATALINK reset should not reset OMS and EICAS maint downlinks.
