Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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If went down in water, there WILL be debris, as there's a myriad of materials that will float or designed to float e.g. seat cushions.
If it went down on land, the night departure might limit witnesses and dense jungle will hide a lot.
Not that anyone here would not know that, or said it before, but just thought it was worth a reminder.
If it went down on land, the night departure might limit witnesses and dense jungle will hide a lot.
Not that anyone here would not know that, or said it before, but just thought it was worth a reminder.
Last edited by AEROMEDIC; 11th Mar 2014 at 06:27.
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From known facts, the transponder was turned off, no radio comms received, and no crash in the area. This implies interference.
The one garbled transmission could have been sent during a struggle.
Its not guaranteed that this aircraft has crashed, or that any hijack went wrong.
What if the miscreants wanted an intact 777? They would have a suitably long and remote field prepared.
The cellphones ringing angle is interesting. Is it normal for a ringtone to be received upon calling a destroyed cellphone? It would be enlightening to know through which base station the calls were routed ... Last point of departure or somewhere else?
I wonder if Li Chi had anything to do with this?
The one garbled transmission could have been sent during a struggle.
Its not guaranteed that this aircraft has crashed, or that any hijack went wrong.
What if the miscreants wanted an intact 777? They would have a suitably long and remote field prepared.
The cellphones ringing angle is interesting. Is it normal for a ringtone to be received upon calling a destroyed cellphone? It would be enlightening to know through which base station the calls were routed ... Last point of departure or somewhere else?
I wonder if Li Chi had anything to do with this?
A FACT and an OPINION from me:
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position; thus, we are now currently still inside the timeframe for this accident, and the amount of time taken to find MH370 cannot be considered to be "unprecedented" or otherwise exceptional
OPINION: I am not impressed with the public face of the Malaysian search effort. Admittedly the operational side may be much better. Watching there press conference left me highly underwhelmed; specifically:
- no Powerpoint presentation summarising search activities - just a map and voiceover
- joking (highly inappropriate in circumstances) about appearance of those with with stolen passports; released that they were black only under questioning from journalists (if this was publicly releasable information, why not volunteer it?)
- no explanation as to why areas west of Malay peninsula being searched
- search areas have spaces between them; if it is possible that the aircraft is in any two given areas then it must follow (in the absence of other information, none of which has been released) that it can be in the area between them
I still believe it is most probable that the aircraft came down near its last known position; and that the failure to find wreckage so far is simply down to the (second world) searchers having missed it so far.
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position; thus, we are now currently still inside the timeframe for this accident, and the amount of time taken to find MH370 cannot be considered to be "unprecedented" or otherwise exceptional
OPINION: I am not impressed with the public face of the Malaysian search effort. Admittedly the operational side may be much better. Watching there press conference left me highly underwhelmed; specifically:
- no Powerpoint presentation summarising search activities - just a map and voiceover
- joking (highly inappropriate in circumstances) about appearance of those with with stolen passports; released that they were black only under questioning from journalists (if this was publicly releasable information, why not volunteer it?)
- no explanation as to why areas west of Malay peninsula being searched
- search areas have spaces between them; if it is possible that the aircraft is in any two given areas then it must follow (in the absence of other information, none of which has been released) that it can be in the area between them
I still believe it is most probable that the aircraft came down near its last known position; and that the failure to find wreckage so far is simply down to the (second world) searchers having missed it so far.
The report from my colleagues CX Flt HK to KL was made last night around 1700 and I read about it this morning from the Aviation Herald, that was 11 hours ago..... They sent ships out today.....what did they find?
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There have been numerous spottings of debris and "slicks" which have turned out to be something other than what is being searched for.
Is this area of ocean relatively littered with debris?
If so, and if the aircraft left little in the way of large floating pieces (this includes any option of the aircraft being outside the search area), then rather than looking for a needle in a haystack, the searchers might be trying to find a needle in a field of other needles.
Is this area of ocean relatively littered with debris?
If so, and if the aircraft left little in the way of large floating pieces (this includes any option of the aircraft being outside the search area), then rather than looking for a needle in a haystack, the searchers might be trying to find a needle in a field of other needles.
Very interesting update from Ben Sandilands Blog
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Hi,
Keypilot
Another fact:
Yes 5 days after the beginning of the Phase 5 of search .. almost 2 years after the accident !!
Keypilot
A FACT and an OPINION from me:
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position;
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position;
Yes 5 days after the beginning of the Phase 5 of search .. almost 2 years after the accident !!
There have been numerous spottings of debris and "slicks" which have turned out to be something other than what is being searched for.
Is this area of ocean relatively littered with debris?
If so, and if the aircraft left little in the way of large floating pieces (this includes any option of the aircraft being outside the search area), then rather than looking for a needle in a haystack, the searchers might be trying to find a needle in a field of other needles.
Is this area of ocean relatively littered with debris?
If so, and if the aircraft left little in the way of large floating pieces (this includes any option of the aircraft being outside the search area), then rather than looking for a needle in a haystack, the searchers might be trying to find a needle in a field of other needles.
Yes I think this is one of the main reasons why this search didn't yield quick results
Last edited by KeyPilot; 11th Mar 2014 at 06:58. Reason: Wrong text quoted
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If this turns out to be terrorist-related, (still a big 'if' at this stage), those who are opining that the terrorists are 'breaking the usual rules' by not claiming responsibility probably should remember that the terrorists 'broke the usual rules' on Sept 11th 2001. Anyone old enough to have been in Aviation pre-Sept 2001 will recall the "don't resist, co-operate in every possible way" rules that were universal in every airline (with the possible exception of El Al and Korean Airlines) until the events of that Tuesday changed everything.
If this is terror-related, maintaining silence is proving remarkably effective, particularly while the wreckage remains not located. The mainstream media will eventually lose interest if nothing happens soon - (it would probably be a very different situation if 230 Americans had been involved, but let's not go there) - but the SAR effort will continue, downgraded, but in some form - and a considerable expense - until something is found. And then the real expense will start, particularly if a deep water recovery is involved.
Someone's said it before me - this could end end up costing a lot of governments and as many airlines huge amounts of money. Which means it will end up costing us, the travelling public, huge amounts of money as well.
If terrorists are involved, the aircraft - or more likely its wreck site - could be many thousands of miles away from the current search area.
If this is terror-related, maintaining silence is proving remarkably effective, particularly while the wreckage remains not located. The mainstream media will eventually lose interest if nothing happens soon - (it would probably be a very different situation if 230 Americans had been involved, but let's not go there) - but the SAR effort will continue, downgraded, but in some form - and a considerable expense - until something is found. And then the real expense will start, particularly if a deep water recovery is involved.
Someone's said it before me - this could end end up costing a lot of governments and as many airlines huge amounts of money. Which means it will end up costing us, the travelling public, huge amounts of money as well.
If terrorists are involved, the aircraft - or more likely its wreck site - could be many thousands of miles away from the current search area.
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Example of crew incapacitation in case of a fire
For our guest forum viewers, just to give an example of how quickly the situation can overcome a flight crew in case of a fire. (I do not directly speculate / cross-reference to this report in connection with flight MH370)
UPS Airlines Flight 6 Final accident report (source GCAA, PDF):
http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicati...013%202010.pdf
UPS Airlines Flight 6 Final accident report (source GCAA, PDF):
http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicati...013%202010.pdf
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@keypilot
Actually not a fact. The wreckage was spotted after TWO days but it took another 3 days to get vessels to the scene.
That very scenario was correctly identified on this very Board.
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position; thus, we are now currently still inside the timeframe for this accident, and the amount of time taken to find MH370 cannot be considered to be "unprecedented" or otherwise exceptional
But if someone suggested 4 days after AF447 had disappeared, that it stalled at cruise altitude and was maintained in a stalled state by intentional control input until impact with the sea, this would have been dismissed as ludicrous.
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As a pilot, I *think* we can discard a couple of theories suggested recently:
1. "Urgent", but not instantaneously critical situation, eventually leading to crash. If the aircraft had some kind of failure that eventually led to the aircraft descending and crashing, the pilots would have almost certainly made a mayday call. The first duty of any pilot is to deal with the situation at hand, "aviate", but once it is clear that the situation is serious, almost any professional pilot is going to take a few seconds to make a radio call in the blind. That is ingrained in training. We just do it. We've all had to do it at one stage or another coming up through our training. It's almost automatic and it doesn't stop you diagnosing the problem and taking action. Unless it is so bad that the plane is literally falling apart or you genuinely have lost all radio contact without notice, which would be highly unusual.
2. "Hypoxia". Once on autopilot, which the aircraft would have been in cruise at FL350, even an explosive depressurization would have left the plane in cruise all the way to Vietnam, at which point the transponder would have started responding to radar pings. And of course, worst case, the plane keeps cruising and runs out of fuel way up in mainland China. It's not just going to disappear.
Four search days have gone and there's no trace along the route of flight. An enormous aircraft. 12 year old 777 in calm weather from a carrier with a good safety record. I can't think of any more likely scenario, than, as much as I hate to suggest it, but it all points to...an instantanous catastrophic event, e.g. bomb.
All things considered and in the absence of any information, am I alone in thinking that this the most likely cause?
There is, on average, a handful every decade. Fortunately, almost all are prevented:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...ombing_attacks
When most people think of an airline bomb attack, I'd say they'd think of Lockerbie in 1988. Probably because it was Pan Am and a 747. But there's been a few since then.
I just can't think of a more likely scenario at this stage, however unfortunate. 777's have an exceptional track record.
1. "Urgent", but not instantaneously critical situation, eventually leading to crash. If the aircraft had some kind of failure that eventually led to the aircraft descending and crashing, the pilots would have almost certainly made a mayday call. The first duty of any pilot is to deal with the situation at hand, "aviate", but once it is clear that the situation is serious, almost any professional pilot is going to take a few seconds to make a radio call in the blind. That is ingrained in training. We just do it. We've all had to do it at one stage or another coming up through our training. It's almost automatic and it doesn't stop you diagnosing the problem and taking action. Unless it is so bad that the plane is literally falling apart or you genuinely have lost all radio contact without notice, which would be highly unusual.
2. "Hypoxia". Once on autopilot, which the aircraft would have been in cruise at FL350, even an explosive depressurization would have left the plane in cruise all the way to Vietnam, at which point the transponder would have started responding to radar pings. And of course, worst case, the plane keeps cruising and runs out of fuel way up in mainland China. It's not just going to disappear.
Four search days have gone and there's no trace along the route of flight. An enormous aircraft. 12 year old 777 in calm weather from a carrier with a good safety record. I can't think of any more likely scenario, than, as much as I hate to suggest it, but it all points to...an instantanous catastrophic event, e.g. bomb.
All things considered and in the absence of any information, am I alone in thinking that this the most likely cause?
There is, on average, a handful every decade. Fortunately, almost all are prevented:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...ombing_attacks
When most people think of an airline bomb attack, I'd say they'd think of Lockerbie in 1988. Probably because it was Pan Am and a 747. But there's been a few since then.
I just can't think of a more likely scenario at this stage, however unfortunate. 777's have an exceptional track record.
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I'm a SLF living in Malaysia with a brother who is a pilot with another airline in Malaysia.
I'm not certain if anyone has seen this piece of news yet about the search in the Straits of Malacca. thhttp://www.malaysiakini.com/news/256723
The source is Malaysiakini which is viewable on paid subscription. I've cut and pasted the article here ( I hope that is ok mods)
The search for Malaysian Airlines MH307 plane has been expanded to Sumatran waters, north of Straits of Malacca, as military radar may have detected the missing plane in the vicinity of Pulau Perak.
A Berita Harian report today quoted the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) as saying the plane may have reversed course further than expected while on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
Air Force chief Rodzali Daud (left) is quoted as saying that based on military radar readings from its station in Butterworth, MH370 may have turned west after Kota Bahru and flew past the east coast and Kedah.
"The last time the plane was detected was near Pulau Perak, in the Straits of Malacca, at 2.40am," Berita Harian quotes Rodzali as saying.
This contradicts with earlier reports that the aircraft had disappeared from radar screens 120 nautical miles off Kota Bharu and over the South China Sea, at 1.30am on March 8.
The Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) had previously said the search for the Boeing 777-200ER aircraft, which is missing for the fourth day, had previously been focused around the waters between East Malaysia and Vietnam.
Berita Harian also said that military radar noted that the plane was flying about 1,000 metres lower than its original altitude of 10,000 metres after the about turn.
There are 227 passengers, including two infants, and 12 crew members on board the plane. Of these, 152 are Chinese nationals, 38 are Malaysians and the rest are from 12 other countries.
Meanwhile, Utusan Malaysia reported that 20,000 fishermen nationwide have been roped in to help in the search-and-rescue operation.
The newspaper quoted Agriculture and Agro-based Industries Minister Ismail Sabri Yaakob as saying that this would involve 1,788 fishing boats around the waters off Kelantan, Terengganu, Perlis, Perak and Penang.
The fishermen were roped in at the request of acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein, Ismail said.
I'm not certain if anyone has seen this piece of news yet about the search in the Straits of Malacca. thhttp://www.malaysiakini.com/news/256723
The source is Malaysiakini which is viewable on paid subscription. I've cut and pasted the article here ( I hope that is ok mods)
The search for Malaysian Airlines MH307 plane has been expanded to Sumatran waters, north of Straits of Malacca, as military radar may have detected the missing plane in the vicinity of Pulau Perak.
A Berita Harian report today quoted the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) as saying the plane may have reversed course further than expected while on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
Air Force chief Rodzali Daud (left) is quoted as saying that based on military radar readings from its station in Butterworth, MH370 may have turned west after Kota Bahru and flew past the east coast and Kedah.
"The last time the plane was detected was near Pulau Perak, in the Straits of Malacca, at 2.40am," Berita Harian quotes Rodzali as saying.
This contradicts with earlier reports that the aircraft had disappeared from radar screens 120 nautical miles off Kota Bharu and over the South China Sea, at 1.30am on March 8.
The Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) had previously said the search for the Boeing 777-200ER aircraft, which is missing for the fourth day, had previously been focused around the waters between East Malaysia and Vietnam.
Berita Harian also said that military radar noted that the plane was flying about 1,000 metres lower than its original altitude of 10,000 metres after the about turn.
There are 227 passengers, including two infants, and 12 crew members on board the plane. Of these, 152 are Chinese nationals, 38 are Malaysians and the rest are from 12 other countries.
Meanwhile, Utusan Malaysia reported that 20,000 fishermen nationwide have been roped in to help in the search-and-rescue operation.
The newspaper quoted Agriculture and Agro-based Industries Minister Ismail Sabri Yaakob as saying that this would involve 1,788 fishing boats around the waters off Kelantan, Terengganu, Perlis, Perak and Penang.
The fishermen were roped in at the request of acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein, Ismail said.
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Hi,
Keypilot
Indeed if the time taken for find MH370 go not over almost 2 years 
(time to find AF447) it will not be "unprecedented"
Keypilot
FACT: contrary to what has been reported by some here, AF447 wreckage was found only after 5 days, and was near to the last known position; thus, we are now currently still inside the timeframe for this accident, and the amount of time taken to find MH370 cannot be considered to be "unprecedented" or otherwise exceptional
(time to find AF447) it will not be "unprecedented"
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Keeping perspective
Trying to keep some perspective...
Just for the search on the East side of Pensinsular Malaysia, at the quoted 100km radius search range from IGARI, spotting a seat cushion is the rough equivalent of spotting a grain of caster sugar in Central Park.
MH seats are often blue (not always - I have no idea for this a/c), so consider the sugar in Central Park might be colored green or brown to get this in some perspective of what the SAR guys are looking for.
Even assuming there are a couple of hundred seat cushions and similar size debris, that's a spilled packet of sugar in Central Park, and quite spread out after a couple of days of drifting.
Just for the search on the East side of Pensinsular Malaysia, at the quoted 100km radius search range from IGARI, spotting a seat cushion is the rough equivalent of spotting a grain of caster sugar in Central Park.
MH seats are often blue (not always - I have no idea for this a/c), so consider the sugar in Central Park might be colored green or brown to get this in some perspective of what the SAR guys are looking for.
Even assuming there are a couple of hundred seat cushions and similar size debris, that's a spilled packet of sugar in Central Park, and quite spread out after a couple of days of drifting.
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an instantanous catastrophic event, e.g. bomb.
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However, the key difference between AF447 and MH370 is that AF447 went down completely off the radar. People searching for AF447 had a huge area, ~400 nm in diameter, to work with, and there were lots of pieces of unrelated rubble within this area. The initial search for MH370 was based on the assumption that the aircraft (or a large part of it) disintegrated at the moment when all transmissions from both transponders ceased. If this were the case, we would've found some debris, the lesson of AF447 notwithstanding. If MH370 went down in a two-phase event, with the transponder and the ADS-B transmitter shut down a one point and the aircraft disintegrating at some different point, the debris could be almost anywhere.
