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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 16th Mar 2014, 04:43
  #4321 (permalink)  
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Interesting statement from John Goglia, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board, that the ACARs system was the source of the pings sent by SATCOM (not the SATCOM system itself as previously speculated).

Thus, the ACARS transmitter continued to send out blips that were recorded by the Inmarsat satellite once an hour for four to five hours after the transponder was turned off
MISSING MH370: 3 pieces of evidence point to jet's takeover - Latest - New Straits Times
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 04:44
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A different kind of ping

There is a video of the pilots passing through security which was posted on 10 March in YouTube. I've no idea how it got out but it shows:

One of the pilots pinged the metal detector alarm.

The other didn't.

The cursory pat down of the pilot who "pinged" the detector did not establish what item set off the alarm.

I've tried to post a link before but probably, as I'm new to the site, I can't post attachments.

However if you search for "MH370 security" on YouTube you'll find it near the top

This may be of some comfort to those who knew the f/o

Last edited by GvonSprout; 16th Mar 2014 at 04:46. Reason: Typo
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 04:44
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"no human intervention"? but the waypts were also programmed. Clearly by the flight crew says Mary Schiavano.

Its actually all sorta looking like the mastermind wanted to go to a remote ditching spot with all the fuel used up, for an attempt to duplicated the great Hudson River feat with a lightened load? And maybe did??
People have been wondering why, if suicide, it took so long to do it. Looking at the profile presented over the last week, I cannot see this man being happy to destroy his plane by diving from a great height - I feel you may be close to the truth there.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 04:50
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Originally Posted by GvonSprout
I've tried to post a link before but probably, as I'm new to the site, I can't post attachments.
this one?

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Old 16th Mar 2014, 04:55
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I made a suggestion about the cargo twice, but it was deleted by the mods both times. Neither time was it profane or derogatory.

On a separate subject the Straits Times are reporting that:

According to WNYC, the missing plane could have landed in 634 runways in 26 different countries.

"Data from X-Plane provides coordinates for runways around the world. A Boeing 777 pilot is quoted in Slate as estimating a runway length requirement of 5,000 feet. A recent Wall Street Journal article quoted sources stating the flight could have continued for 2,200 nautical miles from its last known position," WNYC said.

and there are some dark rumblings from the security services about the uses to which a rogue 777 could be put.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:05
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Regarding security checking of crews in SE Asia, I can name at least 2 airports I visit regularly where crews are NOT challenged if they trigger the metal detector when they pass through security. Both are Islamic states.

Believe me KL is actually one of the better ones. Not as good as SIN or HKG but better than many.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:05
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Now, the US Navy needs to head back from their expensive cruise in the Indian Ocean and check their sonar systems for a ocean bed search where the transponder stopped.
I think you stopped paying attention....

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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:05
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Based on what we have so far (assuming that satelite ping story is true) I belive investigators are working with a few scenarios. It is clear that someone flew this plane off its route. In what circumstances and who did it it is still a unknown to us but we can speculate:

1. Both the pilots did it
2. One of the pilots did it when the other one went to the toilet
3. One of the pax, or more than one, hijacked the plane. You got to consider that the individual flying had some good knowledge about how to fly a jet, disconnect communication systems, fly under the radar etc
4. Memeber(s) of the cabin crew took over the plane and did it.
5. Pilots together with the cc did it

I belive its more important to find the plane at this point rather than figure out what happened exactly.
It amazes me how the malayasian investigators waited a week before searching the houses of the pilots for any clues, signs of foul play. Its not about disrespecting them, its absolutly normal to take into consideration any possibility when you dont know what happened. Thats from an investigation point of view.
Sorry, but before you figure out what's happened, eveyone involved/at the scene is a suspect.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:05
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Communicator said

Despite this clear track record (pardon the pun), the Malaysian PM’s remarks are still crafted around the concept that “we [Malaysia] had no reason to suspect that the aircraft that we tracked flying across our peninsula was MH370”.
Initial remarks are "last contact 2:40" while last primary radar contact just happens to be... 2:40

Yeah, obviously someone connected the flight path instantly but someone else apparently didn't like them saying it and the "official" position was blurred/changed/danced around for a while before being changed back a full week later after it was "corroborated" by the satellite (the roughly dozen or so eye witness accounts from between 1:30-1:45 that night saying the plane went back over them heading West apparently wasn't good enough corroboration- they needed to wait for actual satellite data to know what they knew all along)

This is specifically what was reported in the news cycles on March 8th:
According to a press statement by Malaysia Airline Systems Bhd, Subang Air Traffic Control reported that it lost contact with Flight MH370 at 2.40 am on Saturday.
then we have March 9th:
"We are trying to make sense of this," the Malaysian air force chief told a media conference. "The military radar indicated that the aircraft may have made a turn back and in some parts, this was corroborated by civilian radar."
March 10th
Berita Harian quotes Air Force chief General Tan Sri Rodzali Daud as saying the plane was last detected by military radar at in the vicinity of Pulau Perak, in the Straits of Malacca, at 2.40 a.m. on Saturday, hundreds of kilometres off course.
An AP reporter was also standing right there, hears it, and supposedly verifies the statement with multiple (unnamed) Malaysian Officials

March 11th
"I wish to state that I did not make any such statements as above. What occurred was that the Berita Harian journalist asked me if such an incident occurred as detailed in their story. However, I did not give any answer to the question.

"Instead, what I said to the journalist was, 'Please refer to the statement which I made on 9 March 2014, during the press conference with the Chief of Defence Forces at the Sama-Sama Hotel, Kuala Lumpur International Airport'," the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) chief said in a statement late last night.
His March 9th press conference statement, of course, being that there was corroborated evidence it had turned back.

So yeah, it isn't like this very issue (as well as their issue coming to grips with this issue) hasn't been pretty clear since day 1 - but still, as you say, they work under the concept that “we [Malaysia] had no reason to suspect that the aircraft that we tracked flying across our peninsula was MH370” because... why exactly?

Does the Left hand not know what the Right is doing? Do they just desperately want to ignore anything they don't want to know? (many people here show that quality, so that is kind of understandable I guess...) Do they think they can will the plane into a body of water they want it to be in? Maybe get the Shaman to use his magic and make it be true?

...no matter, all those countries wasting all that time in a Gulf of Thailand that officials pretty much knew the entire time that the plane didn't crash into - and many here selectively believing very few things the Malaysian Officials tell us while ignoring absolutely everything else they and other Governments say

Reality is, the plane turned around and they knew it instantly

Last edited by D.S.; 16th Mar 2014 at 06:03. Reason: typo
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:10
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Excellent post above.
It's an example of how disorganized they are.

Take a look at the pictures of debris taken by the

Vietnamese search aircraft. The the Chinese Satellite.
Both excellent work.

The tragedy is none of the searchers seem to be able to
calculate the water currents and effect of wind on the

Not a lot is available publicly that I could find but the
movement appears to be where it could be reasonably
expected to float in current and wind.

The tragedy is, no Sonar search has started.

I predict within 24 hours the penny will drop and suddenly a
swarm of boats with sonar will want to be first to find it.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:22
  #4331 (permalink)  
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Many block ops A/C flying around this part of the world . Its getting worse for getting held up or vectored around unidentified A/C . Rad alt going off in the cruise .
I've flown with ex military who tell stories of trying to look like commercial by using airways the disappearing into thin air . Stories of military hiding under jets are commen around here .
Thoughts go out to families affected .
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:24
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Assuming the hijack hypothesis are we talking a very skilled pilot with planning or an extremely lucky amateur?

Data points:
  1. Precise timing of disappearance at the minute when switching between Malaysia and Vietnam airspace.
  2. FL450 excursion when heavy requires skillful handling at performance limits (maximum energy climb). [contested by some posters with experience on type. However service ceiling is not absolute ceiling!]
  3. Cruise at FL295 which avoids outbound/inbound traffic.
  4. Follows border between Thailand/Malaysia when crossing peninsula.
  5. Minimal air defense monitoring at night - opportunity to leave the area before dawn when full air defense is active.
  6. A/c avoids areas with active radar coverage.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:25
  #4333 (permalink)  
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The Elephant outside the Room

jcubpilot #4053 page 203
Someone took the time to highlight a massive security threat with regards to the 777 E&E. Given that this information will find its way to anyone who wants it, the only remaining group left out is the general public and they're the ones who can demand change. There is only one reason this threat still exists - it's a financial burden to fix it.
Yes my detailed treatise on what may have happened onboard MH370 in respect of that vulnerability was quickly removed by the PpruneGods as was the later detailed post in support by Woodja51 (wherein he provided details of the various respected institutions - about 20 in all, including the aviation faculty at UNSW Armidale - who'd been trying to get this E&E bay hatch security anomaly addressed). He even linked to a youtube video depicting the detail. The crux of these concerns is that most (if not all) avionics systems can be easily disabled from outside the cockpit....and that this fact can place the pilots in a parlous position as their ability to navigate and control (or even see at night) is progressively disabled. This can be done without pax being aware of their imminent or ultimate fate.

But not to worry. It's now in the hands of a respected aviation journo (Pulitzer holder) and posted on other forums as a deleted Pprune post. Hopefully Woodja51 will do likewise.

It's a pity that Captain Pprune decided to sell Pprune to the censorious present owners. Danny would never have removed posts for spurious reasons of perceived security threat. Then again he ran the show prior to 911.

IMHO (as I said to the journo who I used to work with as Editor-in-Chief of a major aviation safety mag):
"But I'm of the view that "too late/ the horse has bolted"." i.e. MH370 was likely the first such terrorist exploitation of this glaring industry-wide security vulnerability."It's not as if it's a subject that's sacrosanct secure: see HawkEye Media Boeing 777 Avionics Compartment VR Panoramic Photography

(stop/zoom in and rotate for microscopic details of the 777 E&E Bay interior).

It's indeed unfortunate that the industry-preferred (and Malaysian) slant on MH370 is likely to be a pilot-suicide scenario.... with any dissent and viable alternative propositions being universally suppressed by the cost-factors bean-counters and bolstered by the political unacceptability of admitting any sins of blatant omission on E&E accessibility (complete with an FAA nod of approval). MAS liability would also be minimized or zero'd out by a pilot suicide finding - so for that to be the "across the board" choice of a country and industry under siege is quite understandable (however morally insupportable it might also be).

The turn shortly before the transponders were powered down may have been the result of an FA's advice to the cockpit that men had descended into the E&E bay. The pilots, noting a loss of comms, may have decided that their only option was to turn back and await further developments. Navigation and flight control could've then become increasingly difficult as systems were rendered inert.

Because the eventual MH370 report will have to address this E&E ingress/invasion aspect (or be laughed at derisively), "truth will out" and the situation will consequentially be addressed by hardware changes and regulation. Hopefully, but that will be some years downstream. In the interim, nothing breeds imitation like success.... and that should send a shiver up the collective pax spine. Maybe we will witness the rebirth of the sky marshall concept? .... as an interim fix.

If you repeat something often enough, it becomes embedded in the popular psyche: "The Transponder and Flight Data STOPPED indicating a catastrophic explosion." i.e. until the next catchcry takes over with new impetus: "Somebody deliberately switched off the comms and transponder".

I wonder whether they are invading and searching the home of the MAS mechanic who was travelling onboard MH370? Did he have a role to play in disabling systems in the belly of the beast? Given the difficulty of ever now recovering the DFDR/CVR it's improbable that it will ever emerge that it was never the elephant in the room, but the elephant below the room.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:33
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It's a full moon....No surprise there!

I'm staggered by the amazing arrogance of the numerous posters who think I, and no doubt the vast majority of subscribers to this forum actually give a flying hoot as to what they think, guess or insist to be the definitive truth about this ongoing story. As a pilot I keep checking back to this site to see if any fellow industry professionals have gleaned any further insight into the event. I wish there was a way for me to block posts from particular regular offenders who constantly pipe up and spout their ill informed and occasionally delusional opinion.
News yes please
Rumour Lets hear it!
Your opinion....save it for the cat, shout it at the telly or drone on to the long suffering wife, but don't write screeds of it.

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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:34
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I've seen no report or questions re the initial fuel load. Although it may be common to carry more than planned fuel, it would give some idea of intentions if it was significantly different from plan or from the crews normal practice.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:49
  #4336 (permalink)  
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I've seen no report or questions re the initial fuel load. Although it may be common to carry more than planned fuel, it would give some idea of intentions if it was significantly different from plan or from the crews normal practice.
Yes it would.

As a SAR worker in a previous role I will bet my house that the PEOPLE RUNNING this SAR operation knew the fuel load on day one. It is fundamental to any SAR operation, fuel exhaustion time.

Just because the DCA, military and PM who front the press conference don't mention it ad nauseum in no way infers that they do not know. In fact I would also bet my house that the SAR operations staff know a great deal more than has been released.

Why? Why do they not share it? Because there is a very high probability that this will become a crime investigation. Even a non malevolent incident would require a police investigation due to deaths, if that occured. Therefore it is not a good idea to release into the public arena information that builds a case or otherwise.

There seems to be an attitude on here that THEY should tell US EVERTHING they know. Sorry it will not happen. This seems to be worse from those who do not work in the industry.

So, do not expect all information to be released NOW. What looks like contradiction and prevarication at the press conferences is all related to this.

All will be revealed, in the meantime find something else to do.

One last question...If a Surgeons Rumour Network existed on the web and a well known surgeon killed three people in a week would you guys all feel entitled to get on there and discuss surgery and hospital procedures? If no, then why is it okay to come on to a PILOTS rumour network and give us all your OPINIONS based on NO EXPERIENCE or KNOWLEDGE of what actually happens on a jet in front of the cockpit door?
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:50
  #4337 (permalink)  
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Southern direction

On all probabilities its in the southern Indian Ocean. Suicide / hijack whatever but a deliberate act by someone or someones. Engines running at 7hrs is not a good sign given fuel exhaustion would have been minutes away.

The RAAF are deploying for a search along the 40 deg line area. Maybe a P3 will get lucky as I believe JORN was not operating. I assume that the depths will be too great for a CVR/FDR recovery assuming any wreckage is ever located to pinpoint them.

Will go down as a great aviation mystery. I wish it were in the Stan's but if it was it would no longer be a secret.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:50
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To the ppl here that want news and info..............thats the problem guys...There is little known to authorities what happened to this aircraft. When there such a lack of info and such high interest related to the matter, the result is a high amount of assumptions and opinions of "what it might have happened".
Investigators are using the same method. Based on the little they have.....they have to assume and try eliminate possibilities one by one.
Unfortunately, this is the sitution and until more is revealed assumptions and opinions are still gonna come. As long these assumptions are pertinent and the opinions are informed I dont see the problem.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:57
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Narrowing the range of possibilities

I am a Scientist in an industry other than aviation & was about to apply William of Okham’s principle (‘Okham’s Razor’) to the detective process but RifRaf3 beat me to it. Judging from some subsequent posts there is clearly some misunderstanding as to how it should be applied.
Basically W of O was a 13th century logician, mathematician and philosopher way ahead of his time. His ‘razor’ principle, which is in widespread use today in arriving at solutions to scientific quandaries, involves 'paring away’ (with the razor) the least significant information to leave a core of significant facts with which to arrive at the most likely explanation. This will not always be the correct answer, but on the balance of probability it will in more cases than not.
So in this case, we have some knowns (definite facts); some potential information that could have basis (‘from Government sources wishing to remain anonymous’) ; some wild speculation and some outright conspiracy theories.
In the significant category, other than the aircraft has disappeared and is now missing, he would have included the time interval between switching off different communications systems and the apparent navigation between waypoints towards the west that were not on the original flight plan, so Okham would have said that someone is apparently still in charge of the plane and flying it, making ditching or crashing in the South China Sea highly improbable & to be eliminated. Other facts that Okham might have kept in there, but down the list are the fact that this happened at night, with an ER variant of the aircraft (so potentially long range); take off from a Muslim country; and access to a wide expanse of the Indian Ocean with only a narrow peninsula to cross and outrun military radar.
Being way ahead of his time, Okham also knows that, (contrary to some earlier posts) oil slicks can easily be detected by satellite (I use this technology) and that the wreckage has not yet been found, despite the technology being available to many countries and that there is therefore a significant possibility that this aircraft is now on the ground. Okham would also have concluded that this was meticulously planned, way ahead of time, pushing suicide down the list of possibilities.
There we must leave Okham and add some conclusions of our own. An obvious motive might be ransom money, but no one has yet asked for any. The significant possibility that this aircraft was taken for a more sinister motive must now surely now be very high on the list. If so, whatever may be being planned is unlikely to be years or even months away, because the likelihood of the location of the aircraft being found/revealed by informers etc will increase rapidly with time. It is unlikely that someone would steal an aircraft (if that is what has happened) and then start thinking of things that they could do with it. Although this is only a possibility, one would hope that governments of susceptible countries are quietly organising the putting in place or checking of instruments of maximum vigilance to quickly & effectively respond to any threat. Skytrax is right – find the plane.
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 05:59
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To all those who keep asking about cargo, who speculate on how much gold could have been carried, estimating it to 4300kg because of the 50 empty seats, etc.

- Full flights are rare!, and actually loadfactor wasn't that bad...

- Does any of you have access to the actual loadsheet, to confirm the aircraft was either limited to ZFW, TOW or LDW, and what was the actual underload? Don't think so, information must be protected, right now, anyway...

- Standby passengers (staff) are usually the last passengers accepted on any flight, their late acceptance, until proved otherwise, can be related to a long list of reasons other than weight limitations.

So HOW can any of you get any speculative figures regarding cargo, weight limitations due to huge cargo loads, or anything? I've read every single post that is currently present in this thread, as well as many more who got erased (including one that was mine), and I haven't seen any ACTUAL DATA on those matters! Particularly on a matter that keeps being discussed, again, again and again every 5-6 pages.

So, for those who don't know anything about weights, and in order to stop speculation without any single proof, let's do some calculations. I'm no expert on the 777-200ER (more of an Airbus guy), but, well, basic weight calculations are the same whatever aircraft you work on. Thru Google, I found DOW/MZFW/MTOW/MLDW for another operator's 777-200ER, and differences shouldn't be more than 2-3 tons, depending on the equipment and cabin fitting.

Let's assume a Dry Operating Weight of 150'500kg
A Maximum Zero Fuel Weight of 195'044kg
A Maximum Take-Off Weight of 264'897kg (there's a second variant just short of 300 tons, but let's do it with the short MTOW, here, since it's not that important as we'll see later)
A Maximum Landing Weight of 208'652kg
227 passengers, including 5 children (don't remember the exact figure, sorry)

Someone, maybe 1000 posts ago, said departure fuel should be around 50'000kg for this flight duration. Let's assume landing fuel should be at least 10'000kg, which makes a trip fuel of 40'000kg.

ZFW = DOW+222 passengers at 76kg (IATA adult standard weight)+5 children at 35kg (IATA standard as well)+30kg luggage per passenger (quite high, but, well, not that important = 150'500+16'872+175+6810 = 174'355kg vs. 195'044kg = 20'689kg underload

TOW = ZFW + Take-Off Fuel = 224'355kg vs. 264'897kg = 40542kg underload

LDW = TOW - Trip fuel = 184'355kg vs. 208'652kg = 24'297kg underload

Of course, the lowest underload is our actual true limitation, which means we have, available for cargo and according to our calculations, over 20.5 tons. Maybe some 777 jockeys would like to tell us how usual it is to carry that much cargo (again, never worked on the 777-200ER), but seems quite a heavy load IF weight was an issue on MH370.

And for purists, I know, not the right sequence of calculations, but this post isn't to train people on preparing loadsheets, it's just to provide some numbers to try and calm down speculation on cargo when no data at all is available.
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