Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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@ Tarzanboy #2045 (was post #2063)
At last something that makes sense and 'feels' right for an explanation.
It answers some of the 'whys'
..... and it wouldn't be the first "crash/aircraft loss" due to an incorrect way point input
It answers some of the 'whys'
..... and it wouldn't be the first "crash/aircraft loss" due to an incorrect way point input
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MEC fire
Yes this could be a cause of fire and lead to an accident.
However I am sure that the crew if being faced with smoke and fumes in the front end would go through the QReF and don mask and initiate a long shallow to a lower altitude as rightly stated by a dial in of the autopilot. (at the same time initiate other drills to do something to locate and react if at all possible to the smoke/fire) By this stage there would be four eyes and two pairs of hands on this going through check list. A busy time.
All crews of all types will have practiced this in the SIM many times.
Regarding the search in the other direction.
Lets face facts, one of the radar sites reported a radar hit at about the time it could be reasonable to assume this flight could reach if in fact it made a turn. Reported it was not transmitting mode S.
If the authoritys there did not fully investigate and search these areas then I am sure every one would be up in arms that they have not made all efforts.
This is a very sad situation for the industry regardless untill we know the full outcome and untill the DFDR and CVR are located and the data accessed wwe never will do. However its good that so many front seaters are responding on here with very usefull information.
However I am sure that the crew if being faced with smoke and fumes in the front end would go through the QReF and don mask and initiate a long shallow to a lower altitude as rightly stated by a dial in of the autopilot. (at the same time initiate other drills to do something to locate and react if at all possible to the smoke/fire) By this stage there would be four eyes and two pairs of hands on this going through check list. A busy time.
All crews of all types will have practiced this in the SIM many times.
Regarding the search in the other direction.
Lets face facts, one of the radar sites reported a radar hit at about the time it could be reasonable to assume this flight could reach if in fact it made a turn. Reported it was not transmitting mode S.
If the authoritys there did not fully investigate and search these areas then I am sure every one would be up in arms that they have not made all efforts.
This is a very sad situation for the industry regardless untill we know the full outcome and untill the DFDR and CVR are located and the data accessed wwe never will do. However its good that so many front seaters are responding on here with very usefull information.
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@HamishMcBush
Exactly! That's the point I was making in mine #1951.
IMO, after a lot of research here on this thread and elsewhere, there has been no definitive official statement by the SAR investigators that a turn back over the peninsular happened!
Exactly! That's the point I was making in mine #1951.
IMO, after a lot of research here on this thread and elsewhere, there has been no definitive official statement by the SAR investigators that a turn back over the peninsular happened!
Oil rig letter
Some facts:
The Songa Mercur is currently drilling in Block 05-1c in Vietnamese waters.
The reported location in the letter is within that Block - I don't have access to the exact coordinates of the well.
The distance to the last reported location is 306 nm on a true bearing of 276.5 degrees:
Note that the bearing line runs just south of the Con Son Islands and across the tip of the Ca Mau peninsula.
For an aircraft at FL350 to be visible from the rig, it would need to be closer than 230 nm. At FL200, 175 nm.
The Songa Mercur is currently drilling in Block 05-1c in Vietnamese waters.
The reported location in the letter is within that Block - I don't have access to the exact coordinates of the well.
The distance to the last reported location is 306 nm on a true bearing of 276.5 degrees:
Note that the bearing line runs just south of the Con Son Islands and across the tip of the Ca Mau peninsula.
For an aircraft at FL350 to be visible from the rig, it would need to be closer than 230 nm. At FL200, 175 nm.
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The guy in the email must have good eyes, the rig is currently located in the Caribbean Sea 22.84518 / -79.38331
It may have moved since then.
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The guy in the email must have good eyes, the rig is currently located in the Caribbean Sea 22.84518 / -79.38331
Songa Offshore
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Is there any possibility the plane came down over land and never made it back across Malaysia? Dense jungle has absorbed planes before, leaving little or no trace, especially if - and I appreciate it's a big if - the plane broke up in mid air. Just a thought, albeit a very amateur one (no flames, please).
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Mobile Phone Tracking
Nobody seems to have responded in any detail to the various points about pax phones.
It is common knowledge that many cell phones are left on during flights. Given the demographics, most MH370 passengers would be using smartphones. This raises one interesting avenue of enquiry, and one non-issue.
"QQ" IP Number Logs
If MH370 crossed Peninsular Malaysia at relatively low altitude, some of those phones could have established contact with cell phone towers along the flight path, if only for short periods. Such contacts are logged by the telephone operators even if no call is made. MH knows the numbers of most phones on board because they were used for passenger registration.
More interesting is the fact that smartphone apps contact certain websites automatically when a cell connection is established. Families of some Chinese passengers are reported to have observed that QQ (similar to Gmail chat) showed the missing passengers as logged in. (Login could be entirely automatic under control of a smartphone app.) If true, this means that QQ (as well as the Malaysian cell phone carrier, and the respective governments) have a log of the IP addresses associated with passenger smartphones during the fleeting connection with the Peninsular cell phone towers.
As regards jamming, it is, of course, possible to jam phones, but considerable power would be required to jam every single phone throughout the length of the fuselage, in the cockpit, crew quarters, etc.
Non-Issue - Phones "Ringing Out" Without Going to Voicemail
Another claim in relation to phones is probably true but irrelevant - families of passengers claim that when they attempted to call the passengers' phones, they encountered a continuous ring tone (ring out) rather than being diverted to voicemail or an error message after one or two rings.
Based on my own experience, Chinese cell phone carriers sometimes handle unavailable phones in very idiosyncratic ways, particularly when a Chinese phone is used outside China. There seems to be official concern that voicemail could be used for surreptitious political communications.
It is common knowledge that many cell phones are left on during flights. Given the demographics, most MH370 passengers would be using smartphones. This raises one interesting avenue of enquiry, and one non-issue.
"QQ" IP Number Logs
If MH370 crossed Peninsular Malaysia at relatively low altitude, some of those phones could have established contact with cell phone towers along the flight path, if only for short periods. Such contacts are logged by the telephone operators even if no call is made. MH knows the numbers of most phones on board because they were used for passenger registration.
More interesting is the fact that smartphone apps contact certain websites automatically when a cell connection is established. Families of some Chinese passengers are reported to have observed that QQ (similar to Gmail chat) showed the missing passengers as logged in. (Login could be entirely automatic under control of a smartphone app.) If true, this means that QQ (as well as the Malaysian cell phone carrier, and the respective governments) have a log of the IP addresses associated with passenger smartphones during the fleeting connection with the Peninsular cell phone towers.
As regards jamming, it is, of course, possible to jam phones, but considerable power would be required to jam every single phone throughout the length of the fuselage, in the cockpit, crew quarters, etc.
Non-Issue - Phones "Ringing Out" Without Going to Voicemail
Another claim in relation to phones is probably true but irrelevant - families of passengers claim that when they attempted to call the passengers' phones, they encountered a continuous ring tone (ring out) rather than being diverted to voicemail or an error message after one or two rings.
Based on my own experience, Chinese cell phone carriers sometimes handle unavailable phones in very idiosyncratic ways, particularly when a Chinese phone is used outside China. There seems to be official concern that voicemail could be used for surreptitious political communications.
Last edited by Communicator; 15th Mar 2014 at 00:43. Reason: Clerical/formatting changes only
short flights long nights
Some ex airline pilot is on Sky at the moment with a therory that they depressurised, turned 180 degrees and then passed out before they got the masks on. He has them crashing in the middle of the Indian Ocean. He doesn't explain why the transponder went off or the lack of radar coverage however.
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I don't understand how, in an area of fist and sabre waving and military might, including the use of various radar and spy satellites, an aircraft of any size can 'just' disappear !!
What ever happened on board, are we really expected to believe that not one world agency knows where that plane went.
Now l feel really 'safe' post 9/11
What ever happened on board, are we really expected to believe that not one world agency knows where that plane went.
Now l feel really 'safe' post 9/11
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For those convinced that Malaysia is "hiding something", this following article gives a better idea of the inability of the Malaysian leadership - in all three areas - political, military, and aviation - to handle a crisis of this nature.
They have never had to deal with the world spotlight on them, and never had to deal with an issue as huge as this. They're floundering, but they're also trying to play local politics at the same time. They're out of their depth.
Failing to manage MH370 crisis exposes leadership limit | Malaysia | The Malay Mail Online
They have never had to deal with the world spotlight on them, and never had to deal with an issue as huge as this. They're floundering, but they're also trying to play local politics at the same time. They're out of their depth.
Failing to manage MH370 crisis exposes leadership limit | Malaysia | The Malay Mail Online
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WangFunk
You said: "Landing back in KL with no primary electrical power would not be too much of an issue on standby instruments. Its only a small island with a coastal airport".
Where are you talking about? Certainly not KUL. Did you mean Penang?
Where are you talking about? Certainly not KUL. Did you mean Penang?
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Graphic of the search area produced by the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/wo...t.html?hp&_r=0
The image above has an overlay which does not link. Thus, one needs to go to the NY Times site.
Image is part of a NY Times article with much discussion of the confusing, contradicting, and less than forthcoming statements of government authorities.
I've read an explanation that Malaysia does not have a protocol which assigns authority and responsibility to start and conduct an investigation to a specific government body. The result is what you see, --when nobody is in charge, everybody is in charge.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/wo...t.html?hp&_r=0
The image above has an overlay which does not link. Thus, one needs to go to the NY Times site.
Image is part of a NY Times article with much discussion of the confusing, contradicting, and less than forthcoming statements of government authorities.
I've read an explanation that Malaysia does not have a protocol which assigns authority and responsibility to start and conduct an investigation to a specific government body. The result is what you see, --when nobody is in charge, everybody is in charge.
Lnding back in KL with no primary electrical power would not be too much of an issue on standby instruments. Its only a small island with a coastal airport, clear night and no need for navigation aids. Even if they were lost, they could of circumnavigated the island coastline
If thinking that KLIA is a coastal airport is indicative of the quality of "investigative journalism" on show here then I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that Pullitzer Prize......
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I haven't seen this Radar coverage map posted yet, apologies if it already has been this thread has turned into a bit of a monster.
I shouldn't have to say it, but given the amount of uninformed postings on this thread I will
The map reflects SSR range only.
Primary ranges are listed below.
This map was released by the Malaysian Department of Civil Aviation.
For obvious reasons it does not show the capabilities of Military radar in the area.
In the Kuala Lumpur and Kota Kinabalu FIRs, radar services are provided using the following civil/military ATC
Radars:
a) A 200 NM long range en-route SSR located at Bt. Chin Chin, Genting Highlands, 23 NM east of Subang -
Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport;
b) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located to the
west of Johor Bahru-Sultan Ismail Airport runway,
c) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Bt.
Subang, 1 NM west of Subang-Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport;
d) A Transportable Radar, 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse
SSR located at KL International Airport;
e) KL International Airport Terminal Approach Radar - A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) comounted
with 200 NM monopulse SSR located at KL International Airport,
f) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Hill
Chengkuang 1.5 NM NE of Langkawi International Airport,
g) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located to the
south of Kota Bharu-Sultan Ismail Petra Airport runway.
h) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Bukit
Kepayang, 1 NM NE of Kota Kinabalu International Airport;
i) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located in Kuching
International Airport;
j) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located at Miri
Airport.
k) A 50 NM Terminal Approach Radar with co-mounted 250 NM conventional SSR located one each at
Butterworth, Labuan and Kuantan Air Forces Bases;
I shouldn't have to say it, but given the amount of uninformed postings on this thread I will
The map reflects SSR range only.
Primary ranges are listed below.
This map was released by the Malaysian Department of Civil Aviation.
For obvious reasons it does not show the capabilities of Military radar in the area.
In the Kuala Lumpur and Kota Kinabalu FIRs, radar services are provided using the following civil/military ATC
Radars:
a) A 200 NM long range en-route SSR located at Bt. Chin Chin, Genting Highlands, 23 NM east of Subang -
Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport;
b) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located to the
west of Johor Bahru-Sultan Ismail Airport runway,
c) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Bt.
Subang, 1 NM west of Subang-Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport;
d) A Transportable Radar, 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse
SSR located at KL International Airport;
e) KL International Airport Terminal Approach Radar - A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) comounted
with 200 NM monopulse SSR located at KL International Airport,
f) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Hill
Chengkuang 1.5 NM NE of Langkawi International Airport,
g) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located to the
south of Kota Bharu-Sultan Ismail Petra Airport runway.
h) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located on Bukit
Kepayang, 1 NM NE of Kota Kinabalu International Airport;
i) A 60 NM Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) co-mounted with 200 NM monopulse SSR located in Kuching
International Airport;
j) A 60 NM Terminal Primary Approach Radar co-mounted with a 200 NM monopulse SSR located at Miri
Airport.
k) A 50 NM Terminal Approach Radar with co-mounted 250 NM conventional SSR located one each at
Butterworth, Labuan and Kuantan Air Forces Bases;
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Don't be surprised at Malaysia's apparent incompetence
Everyone should be aware that Malaysia makes high level appointments on the grounds of race, not ability. That has been official policy for decades.
On top of that there's corruption, lots of it ....
On top of that there's corruption, lots of it ....
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If it hasn't already been mentioned, B773 the other night had a transponder fail and they did a air turn back
https://twitter.com/avherald/status/443644016056229888
https://twitter.com/avherald/status/443644016056229888