Jet2 Tailstrike @ FNC
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According to a local newspaper a tent will start to be erected today to serve the repairs.
Emergency exit doors have been sealed with some silver tape.
Emergency exit doors have been sealed with some silver tape.
Last edited by JLSF; 12th Mar 2014 at 15:27.
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I feel sorry for this crew. The 73-8 is way too long; the 200 was the original length, which was stretched to the 3, then the 4 and now the 8 and 900s. OK, the taller gear of the NG helps a little, but these aircraft have been stretched way beyond reasonable limits. Fitting a tail skid/indicator is an indication that you have an aircraft that is likely to bump its tail at some point. In other words, it's a badly designed aircraft. I'd hate to fly the 900.
Wind shear can be an absolute pig. I've never been to Funchal, but there are a few places dotted around the south of Europe where big rocks cause bad shear when the wind is blowing from that direction. It's not unknown for their ATC to tell porkies when the wind is beyond limits just to keep things moving. I had that when landing on an island "in the south east corner of the EU" with a limit of 13kts with SE winds. 45kts all the way down the approach and over 30 in the flare, but there was a steady stream of arrivals... Sometimes ATC are your friend, and sometimes not. I hope that wasn't the case here. Still, even when inside of prescribed limits, you can get a combination of sink rate from shear and pitch rate from turbulence that will bang the tail regardless of how good the pilot is.
Wind shear can be an absolute pig. I've never been to Funchal, but there are a few places dotted around the south of Europe where big rocks cause bad shear when the wind is blowing from that direction. It's not unknown for their ATC to tell porkies when the wind is beyond limits just to keep things moving. I had that when landing on an island "in the south east corner of the EU" with a limit of 13kts with SE winds. 45kts all the way down the approach and over 30 in the flare, but there was a steady stream of arrivals... Sometimes ATC are your friend, and sometimes not. I hope that wasn't the case here. Still, even when inside of prescribed limits, you can get a combination of sink rate from shear and pitch rate from turbulence that will bang the tail regardless of how good the pilot is.
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AS
It's been stated before that the tail skid is to protect against over rotation rather than the landing case. This aircraft didn't **** it's arse on the first landing, which appears to have been bounced and then travelled another 300m metres before the second contact, the pitch attitude and speed of which resulted in significant damage.
If as some have stated that the infamous Jet2 ( can't organise a p**s up in a brewery) HR dept get involved they will likely conclude that the crew should have gone around after the first bounce following WS or diverted to TFS in the first place,all very easy after the event and I'm sure the crew would probably agree, again with the benefit of hindsight.
I'm in no way criticising the crew actions, far from it.
I assume the UK AAIB are involved ? They always seem very fair and transparent in these matter and we who fly long arse'd aircraft can learn from this.
If as some have stated that the infamous Jet2 ( can't organise a p**s up in a brewery) HR dept get involved they will likely conclude that the crew should have gone around after the first bounce following WS or diverted to TFS in the first place,all very easy after the event and I'm sure the crew would probably agree, again with the benefit of hindsight.
I'm in no way criticising the crew actions, far from it.
I assume the UK AAIB are involved ? They always seem very fair and transparent in these matter and we who fly long arse'd aircraft can learn from this.
Aluminium shuffler:
"The 200 was the original length"
At the risk of being pedantic, the 100 was the original length at 94 feet. The 200 was stretched to 100 feet 2 inches.
"The 200 was the original length"
At the risk of being pedantic, the 100 was the original length at 94 feet. The 200 was stretched to 100 feet 2 inches.
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Thanks for the link, was an accident report published? I've tried searching the AAIB website under G-BLVH but nothing is appearing (and it's a similar case when I've tried yahoo).
If a report was published, it would have been by the GPIAA (Portuguese AIB), but there's nothing on their website for the incident, in fact very few reports from the 1980s as a whole.
Apparently the aircraftt spent a couple of months at Funchal being repaired by Boeing, was then ferried back to Gatwick at the end of October 1987 and went back into service shortly afterwards.
If a report was published, it would have been by the GPIAA (Portuguese AIB), but there's nothing on their website for the incident, in fact very few reports from the 1980s as a whole.
Apparently the aircraftt spent a couple of months at Funchal being repaired by Boeing, was then ferried back to Gatwick at the end of October 1987 and went back into service shortly afterwards.
It was Boeing people doing the repairs, yes, I met a "Mr Hammer" back then.
It was a Cpt Smith the unfortunate PF that day, fortunately no one was hurt.
The fuselage, beneath the door was bent upward. I think the avionics bay had to be taken out, I remember lots of wires hanging around, when I went inside the plane.
I have pictures of the damage, if anyone is interested just send me a pm.
At the risk of being pedantic, the 100 was the original length at 94 feet. The 200 was stretched to 100 feet 2 inches.
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Bounced Landing Recovery
If the airplane should bounce, hold or re-establish a normal landing attitude and
add thrust as necessary to control the rate of descent. Thrust need not be added for
a shallow bounce or skip. When a high, hard bounce occurs, initiate a go-around.
Apply go-around thrust and use normal go-around procedures. Do not retract the
landing gear until a positive rate of climb is established because a second
touchdown may occur during the go-around.
If the airplane should bounce, hold or re-establish a normal landing attitude and
add thrust as necessary to control the rate of descent. Thrust need not be added for
a shallow bounce or skip. When a high, hard bounce occurs, initiate a go-around.
Apply go-around thrust and use normal go-around procedures. Do not retract the
landing gear until a positive rate of climb is established because a second
touchdown may occur during the go-around.
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Linda
Surely any SMS would have a safety investigation which depending on recomendation may go Flight Operations. Nothing to do with HR unless Flight Ops ask them to get involved 
If as some have stated that the infamous Jet2 ( can't organise a p**s up in a brewery) HR dept get involved they will likely conclude that the crew should have gone around after the first bounce following WS or diverted to TFS in the first place,all very easy after the event and I'm sure the crew would probably agree, again with the benefit of hindsight.
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Mr Angry
Not sure if that was a tongue in cheek reply or serious?
My experience of working for a good number of airlines in and around Europe is that they are either very good or very bad in this area, the common thread in my experience is financial ownership/management, by that i mean PLC's tend to have distance between ownership (shareholders) and executive management, whilst owner/managers just can't let go and the flight management basically in fear of their own jobs agreeing to what ever the owner wants.
I have never worked for Jet2 or likely to with retirement coming up, but most seem happy, but a number have commented about knee jerk management, on 121.5 a couple of days ago two J2 asked to go to 123.45, listening in they were agreeing on what delay code they should use for late out of XXX "just so we keep our story the same, late crew transport? yes?"
An SMS system should not be punitive of human error, provided that it is not an intentional breech of SOP's
Not sure if that was a tongue in cheek reply or serious?
My experience of working for a good number of airlines in and around Europe is that they are either very good or very bad in this area, the common thread in my experience is financial ownership/management, by that i mean PLC's tend to have distance between ownership (shareholders) and executive management, whilst owner/managers just can't let go and the flight management basically in fear of their own jobs agreeing to what ever the owner wants.
I have never worked for Jet2 or likely to with retirement coming up, but most seem happy, but a number have commented about knee jerk management, on 121.5 a couple of days ago two J2 asked to go to 123.45, listening in they were agreeing on what delay code they should use for late out of XXX "just so we keep our story the same, late crew transport? yes?"
An SMS system should not be punitive of human error, provided that it is not an intentional breech of SOP's
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Not sure if that was a tongue in cheek reply or serious?
The safety department investigate the tail strike and collate the facts. The investigation could end there and then.
If not your words
An SMS system should not be punitive of human error, provided that it is not an intentional breech of SOP's
The rest is a load of trivia, th accusation was HR were running the investigation which is bollix.
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Mr A
True enough but it isn't always like that, ask the crew who had a tail strike at Chambrey in a 300 in early 2012, the F/o was gone in short order, the Captain demoted, the trainer who had sim checked the F/o asked to take some responsibility, months later they introduced new performance training for the hand held performance computer after the AAIB pointed out that procedure's weren't clear, following the aircrafts return to service a balance spring in the elevator feel was found broken, test established that it was broken before the tail strike and may have been a contributing factor. So the idea that a company will merrily pay salaries whilst the investigation is on going isn't alway so, hopefully Jet2 as a PLC's will deal with it correctly
True enough but it isn't always like that, ask the crew who had a tail strike at Chambrey in a 300 in early 2012, the F/o was gone in short order, the Captain demoted, the trainer who had sim checked the F/o asked to take some responsibility, months later they introduced new performance training for the hand held performance computer after the AAIB pointed out that procedure's weren't clear, following the aircrafts return to service a balance spring in the elevator feel was found broken, test established that it was broken before the tail strike and may have been a contributing factor. So the idea that a company will merrily pay salaries whilst the investigation is on going isn't alway so, hopefully Jet2 as a PLC's will deal with it correctly
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Then of course there was the other incident a few years back at the same place-inbound when they got the whoop whoop pull up-an extremely close call.
One problem the company has is the ex military old boy network-don't get me wrong-there are great ex service people here-but unfortunately the company sadly has more than a few less than savoury members holding senior positions-which given their attitude to CRM and training is unfortunate, and perhaps is one reason the ever pervasive "blame" culture exists now.
One problem the company has is the ex military old boy network-don't get me wrong-there are great ex service people here-but unfortunately the company sadly has more than a few less than savoury members holding senior positions-which given their attitude to CRM and training is unfortunate, and perhaps is one reason the ever pervasive "blame" culture exists now.
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Just droped in to say that:
- the plane has been towed to the beginning of the apron, parked at 90degs
- three tents have been erected around the tail
- fixes will be made so it can be ferried to Spain for full repair
- the plane has been towed to the beginning of the apron, parked at 90degs
- three tents have been erected around the tail
- fixes will be made so it can be ferried to Spain for full repair
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Quite correct, the tailstrike in chambrey was Titan, nothing to do with Jet2.
Another point, the crew of the FNC tailstrike were found to have followed procedures correctly, they are back on line.
Another point, the crew of the FNC tailstrike were found to have followed procedures correctly, they are back on line.
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Good news.
The aircraft involved in the indecent at the start of this thread, Jet2 Boeing 737-800WL, G-GDFC was flown back to the UK flying from Funchal to Norwich this past weekend where it had some final remedial maintenance work completed. It was then flown to Bournemouth on Monday to touch up silver paint finish before it was positioned back home into Leeds/Bradford this evening.
The aircraft involved in the indecent at the start of this thread, Jet2 Boeing 737-800WL, G-GDFC was flown back to the UK flying from Funchal to Norwich this past weekend where it had some final remedial maintenance work completed. It was then flown to Bournemouth on Monday to touch up silver paint finish before it was positioned back home into Leeds/Bradford this evening.
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A few comments on the above
The ATC at Funchal don't tell porkys, they know the hazards of the place and are very good at giving reports of the wind.
The criticism of the B738 length leaves me speechless, the tail strike rate is low and to protect the aircraft a skid and shock absorber are fitted need we say more.
I was pleased to see the crew who were the victims of a unusual wind gradient at FNC returned to flying very quickly, some Jet 2 insiders have commented that the speed of this return was influenced by the level of criticism of previous action taken again crews and the debate the company policy has generated within the industry.
The criticism of the B738 length leaves me speechless, the tail strike rate is low and to protect the aircraft a skid and shock absorber are fitted need we say more.
I was pleased to see the crew who were the victims of a unusual wind gradient at FNC returned to flying very quickly, some Jet 2 insiders have commented that the speed of this return was influenced by the level of criticism of previous action taken again crews and the debate the company policy has generated within the industry.
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Not in this case. Ok they didn't tell a porky they just didn't say anything once the wind had gone out of limits. Bit naughty especially as they know the hazards of the place etc.
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LSM
Without the exact timing of the wind report from ATC and the change in the direction/speed relative to the aircraft position it is very hard to say that any errors have been made, the problem being that the wind situation at FNC can change very rapidly and a wind report at a very late stage in a turbulent approach may well only serve to distract the pilot at a critical stage of flight.
The fact of the matter is that there is always a reaction time in passing wind information and it could well be that conditions changed faster than ATC could react.
I can only judge the FNC ATC on my 40 or so visits and they have always been first class in passing weather information.
Due to the hazards of FNC there will always be the risk of this sort of incident and it just has to be accepted as part of the risk flying into this airfield........... I know that this fact will not sit well within any company that has a strong blame culture but this seems to me to be a perfect example of a no blame incident.
The fact of the matter is that there is always a reaction time in passing wind information and it could well be that conditions changed faster than ATC could react.
I can only judge the FNC ATC on my 40 or so visits and they have always been first class in passing weather information.
Due to the hazards of FNC there will always be the risk of this sort of incident and it just has to be accepted as part of the risk flying into this airfield........... I know that this fact will not sit well within any company that has a strong blame culture but this seems to me to be a perfect example of a no blame incident.