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Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

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Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

Old 22nd Nov 2013, 02:18
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Curious to know why would Jabara have its approach and runway lights on with an aircraft on approach to a neighbouring airport.
Because it has to be like this. There may be multiple aircraft on simultaneous approaches/takeoffs at all these airports (there is like 7 of them in the area). Plus Jabara is an uncontrolled airport - pilots usually turn lights remotely (by radio) on such airports and lights stay on for say 20 minutes before a timer switches them off.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 02:38
  #122 (permalink)  
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Devil

As an outsider, I have to say that the Dreamliner programme just keeps giving and giving ...
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 02:55
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But nothing from ATC to caution the Crew of an active airfield so close. Tough break.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 03:14
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to happen every once in awhile, no matter what the decade. I remember an SAS DC8 landing at Cartierville instead of Dorval in the 60s. Bit difficult to get out of but it all worked out in the end. Once asked Boeing at a B744 meeting when they were going to build a full double decker. Was told it wasn't possible. Maybe not so, pretty close.

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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 03:51
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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"Genuine question - is this likely to be a career ender for these guys?
Or a `don't ever do that again' kind of discussion."



In the Brussels DC-10 incident the Capt was "asked" to retire early, the FO was fired (was a previously demoted 727 Capt), and the FE was allowed to stay.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 04:27
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting that the approach plates for Jabara all display the three nearby airports susceptible to confusion......

http://flightaware.com/resources/air...DME+RWY+18/pdf

...whereas the plates for KIAB do NOT show the three airports that might be overflown on final, and could be confused for McConnell:

http://flightaware.com/resources/air...S)+RWY+19L/pdf

One wonders why they are depicted in the one case, but not in the other - and whether that will now change....

It never hurts to maintain a little rational paranoia when aviating. The Universe (through its minion, Murphy) is out to get you - if you don't maintain constant vigilance!
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 05:48
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Apples and Tangerines

Some posters have averred hypocrisy or other malefactions by referring to the perceived 'mistakes happen' paradigm prevalent in the thread, and contrasting it with the systemic weaknesses (rooted in cultural over-deference to seniority) identified relative to the Asiana crash at SFO. To those posters, only a short rejoinder is needed: whereas, in the Asiana crash, hierarchical obsequiance or over-deference appears to have been a large or major causative factor, in the incident discussed in this thread, there is no suggestion at all of any such poor cockpit management. So to raise the Asiana crash cultural factors here is like comparing apples and.....tangerines.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 06:17
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Currently, 737s are only flown FROM Renton; they do not land there. First flights go to BFI, and subsequent flights operate to/from BFI.
Intruder, they actualy depart Renton to a variety of airports. The greatest number go to Moses Lake (KMWH); others to Paine Field (KPAE). They occasionally go they occasionally go to Boeing Field (KBFI) or other airports.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 06:18
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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A bit rich there, Willowrun...

Dive and Drive strikes again... had they been following the (non-existent) 3 profile on the LNAV approach, alarm bells would have been going off...
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 07:46
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Willow, what sort of 'culture' do you think is going-on in the cockpit where the crew are flying an RNAV approach and they manage to land quite a few miles short?
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:06
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Either way, unless the CVR shows total disregard of procedures, my guess would be that the feds will pull their tickets temporarily (and check airman letters if applicable), they will be retrained and put back on the line after sim training and a line check.
So, maybe a silly question, it wasn't the same crew taking it out again?

Also, noticed that the Dreamlifter doesn't have winglets -anyone know why?
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:33
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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there is no suggestion at all of any such poor cockpit management.
Sure, everything happened the way it was supposed to. Didn't it?
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:40
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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In the "previous incidents" I can't find reference to the BOAC Britannia that landed at Cartierville-v-Dorval. The Brit. taxied round and took off again, and At The Subsequent Court Of Enquiry the Capt. was criticised for that act, and asked why ? Well, he said, I thought Least Said, Soonest Mended.

Amusingly, a student pilot approaching Cartierville thought " BOAC can't be wrong " so he went and landed at Dorval !
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:50
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Also, noticed that the Dreamlifter doesn't have winglets -anyone know why?
Winglets are only cost effective on long range flights (over seven hours). On shorter range flights the extra weight negates the fuel savings. If you look at photos of the short range 747-400's operated by JAL and ANA (747-400 Domestic) you will see that they don't have winglets. As the Dreamlifter is only operated on sectors of under seven hours it doesn't need winglets.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:55
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Thanks Airclues - makes sense. I had wondered if it was more complex than that - different airflows caused by the new fuselage profile etc.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 11:11
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Ain't Got No Culture

In rebuttal: the point is not that this crew operated in accordance with sound, established, proven procedures (obviously the landing was highly anomolous). Rather the point was only that the contrast some (few) prior posters sought to draw is not fact-based (at least, to the extent posts on this board are factually derived in the immediate aftermath of such incidents). In Asiana, among the situational facts of which the community was quite immediately aware was the fact (or very highly likely fact) that Obsequiousness to PIC syndrome played a materially relevant role. This led to contentions, and/or discussion, and/or controversy, about the Korean civil aeronautics cockpit culture. In Dreamlifter We're Not in the Right Place in Kansas Anymore, whatever set of errors or omissions turn out to have been responsible, thus far, there is no predicate for saying that the junior crewmember was thinking 'this won't end well, but Hot Pants Herbie, I best not say anything about it to the Old Man.' To call a penalty here, on this thread to date, for Hypocrisy, would be like the zebras in Winnipeg last night whistling a Blackhawk or Jet for roughing the passer - the predicate for the call is not part of the facts.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 11:33
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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When I lived in Melbourne in 1985 a Garuda 747 landed at Essendon (YMEN) R26, 3,600ft, instead of Melbourne (YMML) R27, 7500ft, which was 5 miles away. There was a massive strip-out before it could take off again.

ATSB report:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf
I must have the report differently; as I read it, the 747 did not land at Essendon but descended to 350' before climbing at the direction of ATC.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 11:45
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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as I read it, the 747 did not land at Essendon but descended to 350' before climbing at the direction of ATC.
I read it that was as well, RobShan. The link in your quote seems to have some extra characters that stop it working.

Hopefully a working link is:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf

Last edited by srobarts; 22nd Nov 2013 at 11:51. Reason: correction
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 12:31
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Of course this could be a publicity stunt by Boeing...

Most people in the cultural areas of the world have never heard of a 'Boeing Dreamlifter', but have a good knowledge of the 'Airbus Beluga'...


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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 12:51
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Willowrun,
Apologies, but can you say again your last in plain English please?
I became somewhat lost therein.....
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