Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport
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Flarepilot: Are you an airline pilot ?
If you are a real pilot, you would not compare Asiana and Atlas or any other incidents and accidents
What if the Asiana was Cargo and Atlas was passenger airplane.
I understand the Jabara airport was closed at the time and if it was and
what if they were doing construction on the runway ?
If you are a real pilot, you would learn some thing out of these accident
and incident not accusing the crewmemebers.
All I am trying to say is we all had mistakes while we are operating the
airplane especially if you are airline pilot.
I think we, airline pilots, should be humble.
I see so many pilots here are very humble and try to learn something out
of many pilot's mistakes.
And in the mean time I also see a few people who think they are so perfect
and believe that they are top guns.
We will see many incidents and will hear accidents in the future.
And I sincerely hope that I can learn from their mistakes.
And believe me, we airline pilots, learn from this incident.
But believe me, you will hear about another landing at the wrong airport again
because we are only human and human make mistakes
Flarepilot, bottom line is airline pilots should be humble and only humble
pilots should be near the airplane.
Are you a humble pilot ?
I sincerely hope you are because I am trying to be one because I am an airline pilot.
What if the Asiana was Cargo and Atlas was passenger airplane.
I understand the Jabara airport was closed at the time and if it was and
what if they were doing construction on the runway ?
If you are a real pilot, you would learn some thing out of these accident
and incident not accusing the crewmemebers.
All I am trying to say is we all had mistakes while we are operating the
airplane especially if you are airline pilot.
I think we, airline pilots, should be humble.
I see so many pilots here are very humble and try to learn something out
of many pilot's mistakes.
And in the mean time I also see a few people who think they are so perfect
and believe that they are top guns.
We will see many incidents and will hear accidents in the future.
And I sincerely hope that I can learn from their mistakes.
And believe me, we airline pilots, learn from this incident.
But believe me, you will hear about another landing at the wrong airport again
because we are only human and human make mistakes
Flarepilot, bottom line is airline pilots should be humble and only humble
pilots should be near the airplane.
Are you a humble pilot ?
I sincerely hope you are because I am trying to be one because I am an airline pilot.
Last edited by jetpilot007; 30th Nov 2013 at 00:35.
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jet007
just to answer your question, yes I am an airline pilot.
I've been an airline pilot for over 30 years.
Maybe you are new to the game.
Maybe you don't remember when DELTA stood for Don't Ever Land There Again?
And when Johnny Carson made jokes about landing at the wrong airport.
And since you are an airline pilot, I am sure you know who Douglas Corrigan was.
Humble...sure.
And others started to compare Asiana and Dreamlifter, not me...I just pointed out that you shouldn't compare the two...contrast them yes, but not compare.
So tell us all about Corrigan and other piloting stuff...without looking it up on the internet.
just to answer your question, yes I am an airline pilot.
I've been an airline pilot for over 30 years.
Maybe you are new to the game.
Maybe you don't remember when DELTA stood for Don't Ever Land There Again?
And when Johnny Carson made jokes about landing at the wrong airport.
And since you are an airline pilot, I am sure you know who Douglas Corrigan was.
Humble...sure.
And others started to compare Asiana and Dreamlifter, not me...I just pointed out that you shouldn't compare the two...contrast them yes, but not compare.
So tell us all about Corrigan and other piloting stuff...without looking it up on the internet.
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Just a humble thought -
The Asiana crew - all three in that cockpit - subjugated their piloting responsibility to their ancient social hierarchy, that of saving face.
I would suggest their penance include conducting ab initio and recurrent safety/CRM training for Asiana crews. And if trainees will not regard that first-hand experience as valuable learning, they have no place in the pointy end.
The Asiana crew - all three in that cockpit - subjugated their piloting responsibility to their ancient social hierarchy, that of saving face.
I would suggest their penance include conducting ab initio and recurrent safety/CRM training for Asiana crews. And if trainees will not regard that first-hand experience as valuable learning, they have no place in the pointy end.
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Flarepilot....
Yes, I am new to this game.
I am here to learn something from other pilot's mistakes.
Yes, I am trying to be a humble pilot and better one I hope.
But what I see most here is accusing one pilot to another, one airline to
another, one nation to another.
I see so many top gun pilots who blame pilots for the incidents and accidents.
If you have been in the airline for 30 years, please show what kind of pilots
we should be to the pilots who just want to accuse other pilots who made
mistakes.
Flarepilot.
I hope I can learn something from your article in the future.
Thanks.
I am here to learn something from other pilot's mistakes.
Yes, I am trying to be a humble pilot and better one I hope.
But what I see most here is accusing one pilot to another, one airline to
another, one nation to another.
I see so many top gun pilots who blame pilots for the incidents and accidents.
If you have been in the airline for 30 years, please show what kind of pilots
we should be to the pilots who just want to accuse other pilots who made
mistakes.
Flarepilot.
I hope I can learn something from your article in the future.
Thanks.
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...bottom line is airline pilots should be humble and only humble
pilots should be near the airplane.
pilots should be near the airplane.
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Most retired airline pilots as we are are humble but also know how to fly so feel the right to state our feelings about accidents and incidents as these.
Not knowing how to fly an approach speed and not knowing how to do a visual approach in clear conditions in clear day conditions vs picking out the wrong runway at night are quite a bit different. Both crews made errors but the day landing was a student pilot type stupid mistake, the night landing was a mistake of not using your navigational skills. Yes, both were wrong but one was blatently stupid and the other a big mistake. When you get older you might understand what I am telling you.
Not knowing how to fly an approach speed and not knowing how to do a visual approach in clear conditions in clear day conditions vs picking out the wrong runway at night are quite a bit different. Both crews made errors but the day landing was a student pilot type stupid mistake, the night landing was a mistake of not using your navigational skills. Yes, both were wrong but one was blatently stupid and the other a big mistake. When you get older you might understand what I am telling you.
Well said. There's a lot to be said for confidence as well. Plenty of character traits as well before jumps onboard make for a competent pilot. Many times those traits oppose and balance out the equation.
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I respectfully disagree. If the Atlas crew hadn't been quite so lucky in mistaking their runways for one on which they had enough distance to stop and had broken the aircraft or harmed someone as a result, then I think the attitudes displayed by those citing "No harm, no foul" would be markedly different. So, that begs why a mistake where luck plays a major part in the outcome should be excused while a less lucky crew who make a similar error don't qualify for such forgiveness.
As for the skills and airmanship involved, while being unaware of your aircraft's speed and attitude and unable to control them is generally inexcusable, why is being unaware of your position any better? Such a big error could have caused all sorts of issues like CFIT, infringements, collisions and so on (with resulting dependence on automatic systems to provide alerts, let alone the runway performance ramifications. Ultimately, you either know what your aircraft is doing or you don't, and that includes geographical position.
I don't want to judge either crew; I just don't like seeing the different attitudes which seem based merely on xenophobia or racism.
As for the skills and airmanship involved, while being unaware of your aircraft's speed and attitude and unable to control them is generally inexcusable, why is being unaware of your position any better? Such a big error could have caused all sorts of issues like CFIT, infringements, collisions and so on (with resulting dependence on automatic systems to provide alerts, let alone the runway performance ramifications. Ultimately, you either know what your aircraft is doing or you don't, and that includes geographical position.
I don't want to judge either crew; I just don't like seeing the different attitudes which seem based merely on xenophobia or racism.
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aluminum shuffler
racism? xenophobia? oh come on!
when a friend called and said a 777 crashed at San Francisco, i didn't think: oh those damn asians...the first thing I thought was it was a friend from United Airlines.
It wasn't...it was an incompetent crew that happened to work for asiana airlines. I never thought for a second about race or anything else.
how dare you assume you know what is in the heart and mind of anyone else.
Now to Atlas/Dreamlifter. Let's say the runway had been shorter and the plane couldn't stop...Well, the crew might have recognized(while airborne) that it was too short and gone around.
And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)
And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.
You asked ''why is being unaware of your position any better?'' A long time ago, someone came up with:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
Aviate means keep a safe airspeed
Its the first one!
If you don't keep a safe airspeed you can take it from me that navigating and communicating don't matter one bit.
LUCK...sure, Atlas was lucky, so was Sully(hudson river), but they kept their airspeed.
UPS at Birmingham...anyone who has flown 30 years knows that a non precision approach at night with clouds near the minimums is a hard approach...this was a genuine tragedy, but the pilots alone paid, no passengers. But they had their airspeed.
But the greatest tragedy, on the most perfect weather day, when navigation was as easy as looking out the window and following a famous body of water with visual checkpoints and references was Asiana. NOT because the crew wasn't Occidental.
ITS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AVIATE!!!!!!!!!!
MAINTAIN THY AIRSPEED or the earth will come up and smite thee. And the passengers paid.
So Aluminum Shuffler, it isn't race, its competence. Try it!
racism? xenophobia? oh come on!
when a friend called and said a 777 crashed at San Francisco, i didn't think: oh those damn asians...the first thing I thought was it was a friend from United Airlines.
It wasn't...it was an incompetent crew that happened to work for asiana airlines. I never thought for a second about race or anything else.
how dare you assume you know what is in the heart and mind of anyone else.
Now to Atlas/Dreamlifter. Let's say the runway had been shorter and the plane couldn't stop...Well, the crew might have recognized(while airborne) that it was too short and gone around.
And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)
And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.
You asked ''why is being unaware of your position any better?'' A long time ago, someone came up with:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
Aviate means keep a safe airspeed
Its the first one!
If you don't keep a safe airspeed you can take it from me that navigating and communicating don't matter one bit.
LUCK...sure, Atlas was lucky, so was Sully(hudson river), but they kept their airspeed.
UPS at Birmingham...anyone who has flown 30 years knows that a non precision approach at night with clouds near the minimums is a hard approach...this was a genuine tragedy, but the pilots alone paid, no passengers. But they had their airspeed.
But the greatest tragedy, on the most perfect weather day, when navigation was as easy as looking out the window and following a famous body of water with visual checkpoints and references was Asiana. NOT because the crew wasn't Occidental.
ITS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AVIATE!!!!!!!!!!
MAINTAIN THY AIRSPEED or the earth will come up and smite thee. And the passengers paid.
So Aluminum Shuffler, it isn't race, its competence. Try it!
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Flarepilot:
I agree with most of what you say, with one notable exception:
I have flown my share of NPAs at night. Some are difficult, no doubt. On the other hand if I am required by regulation to have the PAPI in sight at, or prior to, MDA and further required to have the PAPI clearly in sight until "over the numbers" I will not crash short of the runway.
There is a distinction without a difference as to flight path management at Birmingham and San Francisco.
I agree with most of what you say, with one notable exception:
UPS at Birmingham...anyone who has flown 30 years knows that a non precision approach at night with clouds near the minimums is a hard approach...this was a genuine tragedy, but the pilots alone paid, no passengers. But they had their airspeed.
There is a distinction without a difference as to flight path management at Birmingham and San Francisco.
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To Aluminum Shuffler;
The lucky crew was the Asiana Crew. They are lucky they only killed 2 people and not the entire plane. They are lucky they are alive.
The atlas crew would have only killed 2, total!
You can what if all you like. One incident was pretty bad; the other incident was inexcusably incompetent.
The lucky crew was the Asiana Crew. They are lucky they only killed 2 people and not the entire plane. They are lucky they are alive.
The atlas crew would have only killed 2, total!
You can what if all you like. One incident was pretty bad; the other incident was inexcusably incompetent.
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Go and ask those who survived the Singapore Airlines 747 accident whether they think mistaking a runway is a trivial exercise.
As for comparing death tolls to judge which error would be "worse", that's just patent nonsense. I can't believe anyone would even resort to such foolish reasoning.
As for comparing death tolls to judge which error would be "worse", that's just patent nonsense. I can't believe anyone would even resort to such foolish reasoning.
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Quantum Meruit
I'm so glad this thread, reading (to some degree) cumulatively has requested my legal opinion on the issue de jour - 'what, if any, comparisons may VALIDLY be made between Asiana crew's failure to aviate, and Atlas crew's failure of situational awareness?' [Opinion wasn't requested, what said? Pursuant to the Chicago Convention generally, nonetheless as legal counsel an inherent right exists to provide, or offer, said opinion.] Legally, it is buck-naked obvious that where fatalities have occurred, a hull lost, and a point of contention created (or such contention point newly-emphasized (if you are among the cognoscenti)) between the US CAA and the corresponding authority in the nation which owns and/or operates Asiana as an air carrier, that situation is let's say a 5 or maybe 6 on a 10-point severity scale. (Not many fatalities, but really sadly incompetent flying, or truthfully, non-flying.). On the other hand, in Kansas, no ACTUAL HARMS occurred. Relative severity: maybe 2, arguably 2.5 or 3, since the aircraft in the incident is (a) of very high importance to such as Boeing, and (b) one of only a handful in existence of that type/config. You Stick-Shaker types have heard of the 'calibrations' in the law: misdemeanor, felony Class A, B, C, X, etc., right? All are crimes. No sensible and/or sane argument for saying all should carry the same weight. Why is the comparison to be made between these two incidents in flying and human factors failures so difficult for so many posters to grasp?
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I think the "what could have..." ethos reflects a desire to analyse every occurrence which may have a quantifiable safety implication. The implications of the Dreamlifter are just as severe as the 'actuals' of Asiana. If the Dreamlifter occurrence is brushed under the carpet because no damage was done then that is a significant and disappointing oversight.
I don't think anyone is comparing Asiana with Dreamlifter - I think there are those of us who are saying that both occurrences require the same amount of in depth investigation in order to identify and rectify the holes. Personally, I'm coming from a position of lesson-learning in order that future crews don't find themselves in the same/similar position. I have little interest in witch hunts.
I don't think anyone is comparing Asiana with Dreamlifter - I think there are those of us who are saying that both occurrences require the same amount of in depth investigation in order to identify and rectify the holes. Personally, I'm coming from a position of lesson-learning in order that future crews don't find themselves in the same/similar position. I have little interest in witch hunts.
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Originally Posted by flaresevenstrokepilotroll
yet I speak only of what did happen.
Now to Atlas/Dreamlifter. Let's say the runway had been shorter and the plane couldn't stop...Well, the crew might have recognized(while airborne) that it was too short and gone around.
And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)
And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.
And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)
And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.
Problem is where do you stop with the what if's? Eventually there's no resemblance to the original scenario after you've made enough crap up with what ifs. Analyze the hell out of an event and take what you can. Make it a learning experience to be sure.
What if as one poster said there had been an airplane on the runway at the airport the 747 landed at. Well, I can think of a plethora of potential outcomes, none of which happened, yet the poster wants us to imagine some contrived outcome.
Stick to what happened.
What if as one poster said there had been an airplane on the runway at the airport the 747 landed at. Well, I can think of a plethora of potential outcomes, none of which happened, yet the poster wants us to imagine some contrived outcome.
Stick to what happened.
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I know we are old retired pilots but one dark night in a B727 I was the captain landing in the Dominican Republic at Punta Cana. Never landing there before and with two new pilots who hadn't either were told at the last minute to do the NDB approach a few miles out.
We quickly got the approach out and did it, broke out and transitioned to the Papi at 800 ft. The Papi had us so low I leveled to make a normal approach. I thought all pilots were taught to do this. Guess not. Guess a mule stepped on the Papi and put it at 1 degree instead of 3. We didn't have magenta lines back then.
We quickly got the approach out and did it, broke out and transitioned to the Papi at 800 ft. The Papi had us so low I leveled to make a normal approach. I thought all pilots were taught to do this. Guess not. Guess a mule stepped on the Papi and put it at 1 degree instead of 3. We didn't have magenta lines back then.