NTSB update on Asiana 214
It would change to SPD/ALT IF they captured the altitude in the MCP.
If they were already below that altitude, or if they had put 0 in the MCP, it would not have changed from HOLD/FLCH.
Yes, intercepting the G/S would have given then SPD/G/S, but the ILS was not radiating.
If they were already below that altitude, or if they had put 0 in the MCP, it would not have changed from HOLD/FLCH.
Yes, intercepting the G/S would have given then SPD/G/S, but the ILS was not radiating.
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..not that I advocate 'flying' that way...
What's the idea behind using FLCH in that situation? Even if I wanted to keep in the autopilot without ILS radiating (thanks), wouldn't the mode of choice be SPD / V/S ?
What's the idea behind using FLCH in that situation? Even if I wanted to keep in the autopilot without ILS radiating (thanks), wouldn't the mode of choice be SPD / V/S ?
My first reply went into the aether ...
Hasn't that already begun? 
FWIW, video game skills in competition require an intense alert state, which is about the opposite of monitoring an aircraft being flown by HAL. The interactive natures of the processes are different.
Yes. This suggests to me that the CRM one would prefer to see in a cockpit is not beyond the reach of our Korean friends.
Yes, as true there as anywhere. Teamwork wins. 
FWIW, video game skills in competition require an intense alert state, which is about the opposite of monitoring an aircraft being flown by HAL. The interactive natures of the processes are different.
I'll will suggest that the winning Korean team had a very flat command gradient.
And if this attribute of a successful team can taken on board so to speak, then they'll be in a position to win in flying operations.
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Some carriers, or pilots, are against using V/S.
Not uncommon to hear "use FLCH in the arrival area." *If* that thinking is followed blindly this crash shows the problem that could occur.
Not uncommon to hear "use FLCH in the arrival area." *If* that thinking is followed blindly this crash shows the problem that could occur.
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The NTSB Talks Too Much!
Idle speculation about the principal causes of this and most other aviation incidents steams my blood. When our own NTSB feeds that fire and contributes to the speculation IMO that is even worse. In the case of Asiana 214 it is probably fair to suggest that a very thorough examination of the items listed below be conducted; they are normal parts of a complete investigation. But some of the 'official' remarks made by NTSB officials seem to fuel the fire without offering any significant facts - yet. IMO, everyone at NTSB should take a hefty dose of their own medication and just Shut Up! It may well be 18-24 months until a final report is issued. Short of a major, interim finding that could affect other flights, we have to wait for their report and they should Shut Up until they are ready to issue that report.
IMO, some of the items that require extremely thorough investigation are:
Human factors (CRM practices and appropriate and correct use of automation) and
Automation functions - whether the gizmos worked as expected.
I can wait. Why can the NTSB not wait?
IMO, some of the items that require extremely thorough investigation are:
Human factors (CRM practices and appropriate and correct use of automation) and
Automation functions - whether the gizmos worked as expected.
I can wait. Why can the NTSB not wait?
everyone at NTSB should take a hefty dose of their own medication and just Shut Up
One is political and expected to stimulate the publics interest that someting will be done when all is said and done. That is the purpose of the hearing.
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and they should Shut Up until they are ready to issue that report.
There is public demand for basic information, however fragmentary, specially in high profile cases, they understand it. The transparency of their investigation is in their status. Would you want to wait a year for the final report to find out that the train operator in NY crash was asleep at controls, I would not. Also whatever info they release is done in fairly deliberate fashion, no name calling, no gloating, no journalistic hyperbole so common in the media, etc. I think they handled situation quite well and the final report will come.
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agree with porterhouse
it is quite possible that the mere mention of the speeds in the popular media may have prevented another crash and some pilots to wake up and pay attention.
there was a tragic crash near paso robles...and the reason was so obvious on the cvr that it had to be released early.
perhaps porterhouse knows!
it is quite possible that the mere mention of the speeds in the popular media may have prevented another crash and some pilots to wake up and pay attention.
there was a tragic crash near paso robles...and the reason was so obvious on the cvr that it had to be released early.
perhaps porterhouse knows!
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there was a tragic crash near paso robles...and the reason was so obvious on the cvr. perhaps porterhouse knows!
flarepilot - you raise another excellent point - preliminary results may prevent other accidents by sensitizing pilots/operators to possible breaches of safety.
Last edited by porterhouse; 10th Dec 2013 at 02:48.
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yes porterhouse, PSA...when someone shoots the pilots you know pretty much why a plane crashed.
been to Paso Robles many times via car, only twice via plane but have flown over it many times.
and yes, if you have an inkling, you have to get the word out pretty darn fast to make sure another crash isn't right around the corner.
been to Paso Robles many times via car, only twice via plane but have flown over it many times.
and yes, if you have an inkling, you have to get the word out pretty darn fast to make sure another crash isn't right around the corner.
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Yes the fired employee at PSA shot the pilots so crashed near Paso Robles. He was able to bypass security at LAX because he had an airline ID, I believe, to do in his supervisor who fired him. I was flying to SFO that day. About that time out of LAX my FO asked me what is that ID you are wearing and realized I was wearing my Mission Viejo Lake Pass and still got through security.
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The Asiana crash shows something needs to be done now about how some pilots fly, not in two years. Three supposedly qualified pilots could not do a visual approach in clear conditions and we want to wait two years to fix this? Fix it now. Please don't make us have more dead people before we can fix it. Obviously there is a problem now.
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Maybe would be good to tell pilots to use the appropriate mode in different phases of flight. Using FLCH at that phase of flight definitely has a smell of sop violation at some point, also to clearly underrstand the automation and what mode does what. For this asiana case, automation didnt fail it did as advertised.
.........realized I was wearing my Mission Viejo Lake Pass and still got through security.
Wore it for a long time, he did. ( pre- 9/11 of course )
Sorry - back to topic.............
bamboo30
Maybe would be good to tell pilots to use the appropriate mode in different phases of flight. Using FLCH at that phase of flight definitely has a smell of sop violation at some point, also to clearly underrstand the automation and what mode does what. For this asiana case, automation didnt fail it did as advertised.
Maybe would be good to tell pilots to use the appropriate mode in different phases of flight. Using FLCH at that phase of flight definitely has a smell of sop violation at some point, also to clearly underrstand the automation and what mode does what. For this asiana case, automation didnt fail it did as advertised.
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RF4,
I think that would be the view of 90% of pilots worldwide. Sadly the other 10% believe an aircraft is flown by manipulating automation to make sure the magenta line is followed as accurately as possible rather than by positioning the pilots body in the right place relative to the earth. After all this is not a small error, aiming 400m short is the same as landing in the middle of the terminal laterally without noticing
I used to think training made the difference but what I see more and more often, as perfectly Servicable aircraft are "killed" by their crews, is that the pilots involved do not have the basic aptitude to do their job. Anyone can wear a uniform and with enough practice jump through hoops but then pretty much everyone can pass a driving test.
One issue from HF I do agree with is the impact of culture. Any culture that views a person gains respect by existing for a long time or passing a course rather than by displaying basic competence is screwed! Importantly though culture is really a component of 'national aptitude' as Einstein said "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." So even if you have the underlying aptitude it will never be expressed fully irrespective of the amount of training given if everything else in your national experience suppresses it. As the aircraft is pointed at the sea wall many pilots will not see it as part of their job to interfere with the incompetent pilot's meanderings or even if they do have the ability to fix it.
Thinking ahead and making sure the trajectory of the aircraft is coincident with the runway; admitting mistakes and fixing them both seem to be lost arts to some of those sitting on a flight deck but should be a basic pre-requisite!
I think that would be the view of 90% of pilots worldwide. Sadly the other 10% believe an aircraft is flown by manipulating automation to make sure the magenta line is followed as accurately as possible rather than by positioning the pilots body in the right place relative to the earth. After all this is not a small error, aiming 400m short is the same as landing in the middle of the terminal laterally without noticing
I used to think training made the difference but what I see more and more often, as perfectly Servicable aircraft are "killed" by their crews, is that the pilots involved do not have the basic aptitude to do their job. Anyone can wear a uniform and with enough practice jump through hoops but then pretty much everyone can pass a driving test.
One issue from HF I do agree with is the impact of culture. Any culture that views a person gains respect by existing for a long time or passing a course rather than by displaying basic competence is screwed! Importantly though culture is really a component of 'national aptitude' as Einstein said "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." So even if you have the underlying aptitude it will never be expressed fully irrespective of the amount of training given if everything else in your national experience suppresses it. As the aircraft is pointed at the sea wall many pilots will not see it as part of their job to interfere with the incompetent pilot's meanderings or even if they do have the ability to fix it.
Thinking ahead and making sure the trajectory of the aircraft is coincident with the runway; admitting mistakes and fixing them both seem to be lost arts to some of those sitting on a flight deck but should be a basic pre-requisite!
Just culture, CRM, and the impressive advances in aviation safety didn't "just happen one day" in Western Culture.
It happened because some people were able to get out of an authoritarian and deference mind set (remember, a lot of airline pilots in the great boom of air travel were former military pilots, whose military cultural norms were also laced with deference to authority) and through millions of man hours of work, effort, and finding out "what works better" created a philosophy of operation that is better no matter where you are from. It took a base culture of challenging conventional wisdom, of challenging institutional bias, of challenging authority, and of being humble as a virtue to get there.
As I said, it didn't happen overnight, and along the way a lot of people died and a lot of wreckage was pored over by accident investigators. You may wish to consider why Korean Air came to Delta (a company that had learned about the better culture through the process describe above) to help out with their desire to improve their operational safety posture.
Having found the better way the hard way, you should not be surprised to hear those in that culture to be deeply disappointed to see cultural resistance to breaking down the barriers that, in our culture, were broken down over the past two generations in aviation. It hurts because of the dead bodies, not the language someone speaks nor where they were born.
Best wishes in the Enlightenment spreading beyond Western Culture.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 10th Dec 2013 at 16:59.
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The NTSB hearing scheduled for today has been postponed:
Press Release December 10, 2013
The NTSB hearing will be streamed live online in English, Korean and Mandarin.
Asiana Flight 214 Investigative Hearing Postponed
December 10
The National Transportation Safety Board's Investigative Hearing into the crash landing of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 originally scheduled for today, December 10, has been postponed due the government closing because of inclement weather in the Washington DC area.
December 10
The National Transportation Safety Board's Investigative Hearing into the crash landing of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 originally scheduled for today, December 10, has been postponed due the government closing because of inclement weather in the Washington DC area.
The NTSB hearing will be streamed live online in English, Korean and Mandarin.
Enlightenment – A learning Culture
What have we learned, and how much of that was from the misfortunes of others, or from ourselves.
Start at Chapter 1 - 'learning' is towards the bottom of the page
"Rather than justify ourselves and blame others, we should look into ourselves".
While we wait for the report, which might only explain why 'this accident' occurred, and on inspection ‘this would not apply to me’, there is opportunity to learn by exploring the situation as currently known and considering how we might avoid this – and why.
Start at Chapter 1 - 'learning' is towards the bottom of the page
"Rather than justify ourselves and blame others, we should look into ourselves".
While we wait for the report, which might only explain why 'this accident' occurred, and on inspection ‘this would not apply to me’, there is opportunity to learn by exploring the situation as currently known and considering how we might avoid this – and why.
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in my view the systems of an airplane are all subject to failure and a good pilot should be ready to correct or act in a way to save the people aboard and innocents on the ground.
perhaps wings falling off, complete control failure or onboard cabin fire might be good reasons to excuse a pilot from the above.
But even if the autothrotle system failed, there is no excuse to allow an otherwise properly working airplane to get too slow and too low.
perhaps wings falling off, complete control failure or onboard cabin fire might be good reasons to excuse a pilot from the above.
But even if the autothrotle system failed, there is no excuse to allow an otherwise properly working airplane to get too slow and too low.