NTSB update on Asiana 214
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@bubs - Quite. Personally I'm not sure where RH is going with the automation talk, as even on the most advanced airliners pilots will be expected to shoot ILS and visual approaches manually on a fairly regular basis.
One thing I would like to see, though, is fostering a culture of "no harm, no foul" co-operation - such that a pilot should be free to admit they're struggling in that situation and hand over/go-around accordingly without the threat of a permanent blot on their record.
One thing I would like to see, though, is fostering a culture of "no harm, no foul" co-operation - such that a pilot should be free to admit they're struggling in that situation and hand over/go-around accordingly without the threat of a permanent blot on their record.
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Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
I'm not sure where RH is going with the automation talk
.My ref :
- *butterfly* is a friendly wink to theory of chaos, but I accept an other proposition
- The word "protection" must be replaced by "limitation"
- Freedom does responsibility (civil and criminal). No responsibility of pilots in trials you are claiming requests no freedom of decision of the Captain
- Operator's manual suppressed and replaced by Manufacturer's manual (Radio France-Inter yesterday ~10:20)
- Cf Declaration of Me Daniel Soulez-Larivière
- Lack of sanction against frauding French pilots I already told
- Writing of rules of sound limits in European airports to sell Airbus to ex-sovietic world and pressures on ICAO to get them
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Problems with Koreans having the heads up from their fellows for their sim pc? Check this out. There is a brig. gen patricia halftrack who can procure alteon checker's sim check operating instruction notes! Scary how corrupt the system has got even amongst the expats after I left!
Problems with Koreans having the heads up from their fellows for their sim pc? Check this out. There is a brig. gen patricia halftrack who can procure alteon checker's sim check operating instruction notes! Scary how corrupt the system has got even amongst the expats after I left!
totempole
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Parker pen pilot hours...oh, oh, oh you guys must be making fun of brig. Gen patricia halfback of " swiss air/crosshair " fame now holed up in incheon! Not nice, you know because he is such a nice volunteer boyscout! Guys can even get alteon instructors' sim check operating notes from him, small wonder so many newbies ace all the sim checks at jungseok building next ti inha hospital !
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Parker pen pilot hours...oh, oh, oh you guys must be making fun of brig. Gen patricia halfback of " swiss air/crosshair " fame now holed up in incheon! Not nice, you know because he is such a nice volunteer boyscout! Guys can even get alteon instructors' sim check operating notes from him, small wonder so many newbies ace all the sim checks at jungseok building next ti inha hospital !
There we go with the ad hominem. I am not partisan in that regard - I'm what a certain subset of geeks would call "Lawful Neutral". By that I mean I favour no manufacturer, but if I see something I'm fairly certain to be based on hearsay rather than fact, I won't be shy to point it out. For example - in your previous post you again refer to "FBW automation", when FBW and automation are two separate things.
Your issue may be the problem of conflating FBW and autopilot far too often. You can have AP functions with or without FBW. (See the coupled SAR or Dip approach in the old SH-3 Sea King for a primative example ... )
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Your issue may be the problem of conflating FBW and autopilot far too often.
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Problems with Koreans having the heads up from their fellows for their sim pc? Check this out. There is a brig. gen patricia halftrack who can procure alteon checker's sim check operating instruction notes! Scary how corrupt the system has got even amongst the expats after I left!
Quote:
totempole
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Parker pen pilot hours...oh, oh, oh you guys must be making fun of brig. Gen patricia halfback of " swiss air/crosshair " fame now holed up in incheon! Not nice, you know because he is such a nice volunteer boyscout! Guys can even get alteon instructors' sim check operating notes from him, small wonder so many newbies ace all the sim checks at jungseok building next ti inha hospital !
Problems with Koreans having the heads up from their fellows for their sim pc? Check this out. There is a brig. gen patricia halftrack who can procure alteon checker's sim check operating instruction notes! Scary how corrupt the system has got even amongst the expats after I left!
Quote:
totempole
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Parker pen pilot hours...oh, oh, oh you guys must be making fun of brig. Gen patricia halfback of " swiss air/crosshair " fame now holed up in incheon! Not nice, you know because he is such a nice volunteer boyscout! Guys can even get alteon instructors' sim check operating notes from him, small wonder so many newbies ace all the sim checks at jungseok building next ti inha hospital !
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Problems with Koreans having the heads up from their fellows for their sim pc? Check this out. There is a brig. gen patricia halftrack who can procure alteon checker's sim check operating instruction notes! Scary how corrupt the system has got even amongst the expats after I left!
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J.O. - thanks for the reasoned response. My point was not to criminalize all mistakes and errors - I agree that a system that encourages self-reporting in attempt to identify and address potential systemic issues is a clear value.
That said in my personal opinion there needs to be limits. Where do you draw the line? Is there any level of mistake, error, or more important lack of competence which rises to an actionable level then?
If there are minimal or no consequences no matter how egregious the act - what incentive is there to correct behavior?
And I'm not sure it's even the pilots who should be held accountable. From a myriad of commenters here and elsewhere this lack of competence in the most basic skill sets seems fairly well known. Clearly company officials are aware, considering their attempts at new outside blood in training/cert areas.
Obviously those efforts have not been successful. Glaringly serious deficiencies in basic flight competency still exist.
The closest experience I have in transport aircraft is a cptr flight sim. That said I would be fairly certain if you put me or someone similar in that cockpit we would have done at least something at some point during that descent ...
Perhaps we should at least consider a moderated approach - where most actions are protected, but also were gross negligence can cause pilots and perhaps more important their companies at risk of prosecution for true negligence?
That said in my personal opinion there needs to be limits. Where do you draw the line? Is there any level of mistake, error, or more important lack of competence which rises to an actionable level then?
If there are minimal or no consequences no matter how egregious the act - what incentive is there to correct behavior?
And I'm not sure it's even the pilots who should be held accountable. From a myriad of commenters here and elsewhere this lack of competence in the most basic skill sets seems fairly well known. Clearly company officials are aware, considering their attempts at new outside blood in training/cert areas.
Obviously those efforts have not been successful. Glaringly serious deficiencies in basic flight competency still exist.
The closest experience I have in transport aircraft is a cptr flight sim. That said I would be fairly certain if you put me or someone similar in that cockpit we would have done at least something at some point during that descent ...
Perhaps we should at least consider a moderated approach - where most actions are protected, but also were gross negligence can cause pilots and perhaps more important their companies at risk of prosecution for true negligence?
220:
Fair points and some good questions. I believe we will find that culture played a significant role in this accident, but whether the NTSB will raise findings against that in their final report remains to be seen.
A fundamental problem that many have trouble accepting is that what you and I would think to be unacceptable in a cockpit culture - i.e. the Captain must be open to questioning from his underlings - is extremely hard to accept in some cultures.
The challenge is in finding black and white definitions for incompetence or negligence for something that is clouded in myriad shades of grey, particularly when it comes to culture. Our world is full of differences that often pit "ours against theirs" in a never-ending debate that usually fails to be resolved due to cultural differences. Much of the world rails at the ancient hunting practices used by Inuit seal hunters in eastern Canada. In their mind the only solution is an outright ban on those practices. Yet most of those same complainers would think nothing of sitting down to a nice meal of beef or chicken that came from a slaughter house where similarly abhorrent killing practices occur, but they are done behind closed doors. Where are the calls to shut down the hundreds of meat packing plants? Of course there isn't such a call from most people because sitting down to that nice steak dinner is a cultural norm - including how it landed on their plate in the first place. But honestly, which side is right in that debate? Who decides?
If we punish this crew for behaving the way centuries of culture have taught them to behave, are we really acting in the best way to prevent it from happening again? I think not. Cultural change takes generations. Any effort to change culture is usually unsuccessful when it is driven by punishment from a side that claims to "know better". Have Western efforts to curb extremist terrorism been advanced by bombing innocent women and children? I think not. Cultural change is best gained through education and setting positive examples, but at the end of the day those making the change have to "want" to change.
Fair points and some good questions. I believe we will find that culture played a significant role in this accident, but whether the NTSB will raise findings against that in their final report remains to be seen.
A fundamental problem that many have trouble accepting is that what you and I would think to be unacceptable in a cockpit culture - i.e. the Captain must be open to questioning from his underlings - is extremely hard to accept in some cultures.
The challenge is in finding black and white definitions for incompetence or negligence for something that is clouded in myriad shades of grey, particularly when it comes to culture. Our world is full of differences that often pit "ours against theirs" in a never-ending debate that usually fails to be resolved due to cultural differences. Much of the world rails at the ancient hunting practices used by Inuit seal hunters in eastern Canada. In their mind the only solution is an outright ban on those practices. Yet most of those same complainers would think nothing of sitting down to a nice meal of beef or chicken that came from a slaughter house where similarly abhorrent killing practices occur, but they are done behind closed doors. Where are the calls to shut down the hundreds of meat packing plants? Of course there isn't such a call from most people because sitting down to that nice steak dinner is a cultural norm - including how it landed on their plate in the first place. But honestly, which side is right in that debate? Who decides?
If we punish this crew for behaving the way centuries of culture have taught them to behave, are we really acting in the best way to prevent it from happening again? I think not. Cultural change takes generations. Any effort to change culture is usually unsuccessful when it is driven by punishment from a side that claims to "know better". Have Western efforts to curb extremist terrorism been advanced by bombing innocent women and children? I think not. Cultural change is best gained through education and setting positive examples, but at the end of the day those making the change have to "want" to change.
Old 19th Nov 2013, 12:13
J.O.
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220:
...If we punish this crew for behaving the way centuries of culture have taught them to behave, are we really acting in the best way to prevent it from happening again?...
J.O.
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220:
...If we punish this crew for behaving the way centuries of culture have taught them to behave, are we really acting in the best way to prevent it from happening again?...
It is not acceptable to the modern World to accept the excuse of thousands of years of ancient cultural thinking for killing innocent International passengers in this day and age.
Get with the current expectations, or get out of the business...QED.
You're right J.O.
Maybe us Yanks, Aussies and Kiwis should have stood back and let the Japanese catch Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese/Filipino babies on their bayonets, and use our soldiers for bayonet and Samurai sword execution practice nstead of lighting them up almost 70 years ago.
After all, it would be only 30 years or so until they felt comfortable and learn from gentle guidance that sort of behavior isn't acceptable.
It wasn't long ago when we in the west had the same cockpit culture, but learned to change to stop the bloodletting.
You do illustrate a point in world history as to why the western world has seemed to dominate every other culture in warfare. That would be despite our near barbarian status compared to the early advances of the Islamic world and the Asian cultures going back a couple of thousand years, we seem to adapt to what works best quickly no matter whose idea it is. (not always as Uncle Ho proved, as well as Yamamoto V1.0)
Let me guess as to how long our operations would last in other parts of the world if daily ops splattered their airports with Boeing, Airbus and their citizen's body parts.
Not long I'd guess.
Maybe us Yanks, Aussies and Kiwis should have stood back and let the Japanese catch Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese/Filipino babies on their bayonets, and use our soldiers for bayonet and Samurai sword execution practice nstead of lighting them up almost 70 years ago.
After all, it would be only 30 years or so until they felt comfortable and learn from gentle guidance that sort of behavior isn't acceptable.
It wasn't long ago when we in the west had the same cockpit culture, but learned to change to stop the bloodletting.
You do illustrate a point in world history as to why the western world has seemed to dominate every other culture in warfare. That would be despite our near barbarian status compared to the early advances of the Islamic world and the Asian cultures going back a couple of thousand years, we seem to adapt to what works best quickly no matter whose idea it is. (not always as Uncle Ho proved, as well as Yamamoto V1.0)
Let me guess as to how long our operations would last in other parts of the world if daily ops splattered their airports with Boeing, Airbus and their citizen's body parts.
Not long I'd guess.
I'm not sure why I bother. Clearly some folks refuse to read my comments in the context they're being delivered. I am not for one minute making excuses. I am simply trying to offer real solutions for change. Punishment won't work. It rarely does. If it did, the first hanging in history should have been enough to prevent all future crimes against our fellow man. How's that going?
Whether you, I or anyone else likes it, we live in a world of different cultures. While you may be right that the "West" is more modern and willing to adapt to change, ours is not the only way things get done this world. In fact, many of our own cultural norms are completely effed up but it's unlikely they'll change any time soon. Gun culture in the USA is one classic example. So is the Walmartization of our economies.
The issue of "save face" and its affect on cockpit culture is hardly new, nor are Western attempts to drive it out of the flight deck. Clearly we have yet to succeed. We can get all huffy and close our doors to foreign cultures who refuse to adapt, but how does that protect our fellow citizens when they are traveling around the world and have no choice but to travel with those outfits? Or we can analyze the issue calmly, rationally and without emotion and offer up constructive solutions and lead by example.
Whether you, I or anyone else likes it, we live in a world of different cultures. While you may be right that the "West" is more modern and willing to adapt to change, ours is not the only way things get done this world. In fact, many of our own cultural norms are completely effed up but it's unlikely they'll change any time soon. Gun culture in the USA is one classic example. So is the Walmartization of our economies.
The issue of "save face" and its affect on cockpit culture is hardly new, nor are Western attempts to drive it out of the flight deck. Clearly we have yet to succeed. We can get all huffy and close our doors to foreign cultures who refuse to adapt, but how does that protect our fellow citizens when they are traveling around the world and have no choice but to travel with those outfits? Or we can analyze the issue calmly, rationally and without emotion and offer up constructive solutions and lead by example.
In other news, and releted to this crash, the FAA seems to think that there are too many children of the magenta line in cockpits these days ...
Automation dependence. I guess it's here to stay. Make sure your life insurance premiums are paid and up to date.
Automation dependence. I guess it's here to stay. Make sure your life insurance premiums are paid and up to date.
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but now even the FAA and the pilots union agree that pilots need to avoid “automation addiction” and keep their manual flying skills fresh.
And that is going to require a MAJOR philosophical change in the Flt Ops of many airlines I'm aware of. How is an XAA going to demand that? If the FLT OPs don't want to incorporate this idea due to the occasional screw up and G/A = money & time, then I suspect they'll stay with the automated approach philosophy. This is perceived to be the more safe attitude on a daily basis. If the poo doesn't hit the fan then those lost or latent skills will never be needed. A bit like why do we still have an appendix? That seems to be the philosophy that has evolved during the massive expansion over the past 15 years. There is no time to train this skill in the beginning. A minimum time TQ and get on the line as quickly & safely as possible.
Previously airlines were more quiet in their expansion, and from a few national bases. The training hens could keep a beady eye on their chicks and on the daily operations. It was easy to have a pilot culture, and indeed many charter airfields demanded it. Now, with rapid expansion with many overseas bases with guys from a multitude of backgrounds, it is not possible to have a live daily oversight and build the pilot culture. Neither, with so many ILS's and radar and VNAV/LNAV NPA's & RNAV/VNAV/GPS approaches the Mark 1 eyeball is no longer a required parameter of the modern 'operator'. Hence rigid trained monkey SOP's especially with the expansions begin serviced by cadets. The FAA might want a career progression via the regionals and commuters onto the airlines, but European airlines want raw cadets into the cockpit. No bad habits to unlearn.
They should change the name of the profession to be honest.
And that is going to require a MAJOR philosophical change in the Flt Ops of many airlines I'm aware of. How is an XAA going to demand that? If the FLT OPs don't want to incorporate this idea due to the occasional screw up and G/A = money & time, then I suspect they'll stay with the automated approach philosophy. This is perceived to be the more safe attitude on a daily basis. If the poo doesn't hit the fan then those lost or latent skills will never be needed. A bit like why do we still have an appendix? That seems to be the philosophy that has evolved during the massive expansion over the past 15 years. There is no time to train this skill in the beginning. A minimum time TQ and get on the line as quickly & safely as possible.
Previously airlines were more quiet in their expansion, and from a few national bases. The training hens could keep a beady eye on their chicks and on the daily operations. It was easy to have a pilot culture, and indeed many charter airfields demanded it. Now, with rapid expansion with many overseas bases with guys from a multitude of backgrounds, it is not possible to have a live daily oversight and build the pilot culture. Neither, with so many ILS's and radar and VNAV/LNAV NPA's & RNAV/VNAV/GPS approaches the Mark 1 eyeball is no longer a required parameter of the modern 'operator'. Hence rigid trained monkey SOP's especially with the expansions begin serviced by cadets. The FAA might want a career progression via the regionals and commuters onto the airlines, but European airlines want raw cadets into the cockpit. No bad habits to unlearn.
They should change the name of the profession to be honest.
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In such discussions we should demistify or forget about the modern excess of political correctnes concerning the cultural aspect. It seems that simply raising it today puts you in the racist corner and your point of view is discarded.
There is a cultural component and it should be raised, highlighted and, if possible, tackled.
Take for example Switzerland with its liberal arms law. You can see a 16 years old on his mopeds carrying a gun to the gun-range for training (amunition is only distributed there). Each reserve soldier has his weapon at home (with sealed ammunition). There is no big problem with that law.
The same situation can be observed in Lybia today. It is however illegal and with devastating effect.
Where would you rather be or whom would you rather trust?
The answer is obvious and it is due a huge difference in culture, not to say civilisation. We would all agree that it should not be allowed in Lybia, but can continue in Switzerland.
Ask yourself why.
Extending this comparison to civil aviation, we can conclude that the Western culture, or civilisation has brought us the latest generation of airliners. With it came inseparably the design, layout and philosophy of operation of these machines. If another culture has issues and problems to adopt and adapt to this philosophy, it is not necesseraly that their culture is inferior or wrong. Pretending that is wrong and inappropriate, just as insinuating that raising this issue automatically includes such a pretention. It is stating that people with such cultures should maybe not operate Western designs. Either they should design their own machines and sops, adapted to their cultures, stay away from the other if not willing or able to fully adopt the appropriate “culture” during operation.
Important:
It might be that different technologies and sops could reach similar safety standards. Up to today there have been faint shots at that (Russian or Chinese technology/sops), but they have not proven an equally high safety standard up to now, for whatever reason is not the issue here.
Therefore we are not to be treated as racists or supremacists when asking for adoption of the adequate culture in Western designed airliners.
Experience shows that this is a reasonable and safe demand.
Stop beating around the bush and face the facts. In the end we would do these cultures a better service to address the problem straight on.
And we will do safety a much bigger service.
There is a cultural component and it should be raised, highlighted and, if possible, tackled.
Take for example Switzerland with its liberal arms law. You can see a 16 years old on his mopeds carrying a gun to the gun-range for training (amunition is only distributed there). Each reserve soldier has his weapon at home (with sealed ammunition). There is no big problem with that law.
The same situation can be observed in Lybia today. It is however illegal and with devastating effect.
Where would you rather be or whom would you rather trust?
The answer is obvious and it is due a huge difference in culture, not to say civilisation. We would all agree that it should not be allowed in Lybia, but can continue in Switzerland.
Ask yourself why.
Extending this comparison to civil aviation, we can conclude that the Western culture, or civilisation has brought us the latest generation of airliners. With it came inseparably the design, layout and philosophy of operation of these machines. If another culture has issues and problems to adopt and adapt to this philosophy, it is not necesseraly that their culture is inferior or wrong. Pretending that is wrong and inappropriate, just as insinuating that raising this issue automatically includes such a pretention. It is stating that people with such cultures should maybe not operate Western designs. Either they should design their own machines and sops, adapted to their cultures, stay away from the other if not willing or able to fully adopt the appropriate “culture” during operation.
Important:
It might be that different technologies and sops could reach similar safety standards. Up to today there have been faint shots at that (Russian or Chinese technology/sops), but they have not proven an equally high safety standard up to now, for whatever reason is not the issue here.
Therefore we are not to be treated as racists or supremacists when asking for adoption of the adequate culture in Western designed airliners.
Experience shows that this is a reasonable and safe demand.
Stop beating around the bush and face the facts. In the end we would do these cultures a better service to address the problem straight on.
And we will do safety a much bigger service.