Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
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There have been several posts alluding to public opinion which seem to miss what it is;
It is of course a basic tennet of the EE ideal that all businesses in all countries compete fairly by operating to the same rules
We at the pointed end want our bit to be the safest but they at the political end want to say that all EU citizens and undertakings are equal
It is of course a basic tennet of the EE ideal that all businesses in all countries compete fairly by operating to the same rules
We at the pointed end want our bit to be the safest but they at the political end want to say that all EU citizens and undertakings are equal
Is there somewhere a tightening of the rules or is it as suspected a relaxation to standardize on the most lax rules?
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At Post #72, there was a quote that said in part:
Apart from the noise about EU voting procedures etc, there was a deafening silence about this part of the quote. 
My reading of the Draft CS for flight time specification schemes that accompanied Opinion 04-2012 suggest that this statement is patently untrue. The draft CS states:
Nowhere (that I have seen) has it been suggested that FDPs of greater than 13 hours will require 4 pilots. 
Can anyone confirm that the Draft CS has not been further amended from that published on the EASA website?
On long haul flights of more than 13 hours Flight Duty Period, the UK will now be required to ensure a minimum of four pilots on board. The present UK rules only allow for three. This is just one of the clear safety improvements.
My reading of the Draft CS for flight time specification schemes that accompanied Opinion 04-2012 suggest that this statement is patently untrue. The draft CS states:
(b) The maximum daily FDP under the provisions of ORO.FTL.205 (e) may be extended due to in-flight rest for flight crew:
(1) with one additional flight crew member:
(i) up to 14 hours with class 3 rest facilities;
(ii) up to 15 hours with class 2 rest facilities; and
(iii) up to 16 hours with class 1 rest facilities; and
(2) with two additional flight crew members:(ii) up to 15 hours with class 2 rest facilities; and
(iii) up to 16 hours with class 1 rest facilities; and
(i) up to 15 hours with class 3 rest facilities;
(ii) up to 16 hours with class 2 rest facilities; and
(iii) up to 17 hours with class 1 rest facilities.
(ii) up to 16 hours with class 2 rest facilities; and
(iii) up to 17 hours with class 1 rest facilities.
Can anyone confirm that the Draft CS has not been further amended from that published on the EASA website?
Just for general interest, and to compare and contrast; Here are the EU rules for truck drivers, (from GOV.UK):-
My emphasis on the last point. And the turnaround is not suitable as the 45 mins rest.
In addition, the Health and Safety Executive specifies that a break of 15/20 mins should be taken after every 2 hours of driving.
Breaks and rest
The main points of EU rules on breaks and rest are that you must take:
at least 11 hours rest every day - you can reduce this to 9 hours rest 3 times in a week
an unbroken break of 45 hours every week - you can reduce this to 24 hours every other week
your weekly rest after 6 days of working - coach drivers on an international trip can take their weekly rest after 12 days
a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes after no more than 4.5 hours driving
The main points of EU rules on breaks and rest are that you must take:
at least 11 hours rest every day - you can reduce this to 9 hours rest 3 times in a week
an unbroken break of 45 hours every week - you can reduce this to 24 hours every other week
your weekly rest after 6 days of working - coach drivers on an international trip can take their weekly rest after 12 days
a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes after no more than 4.5 hours driving
In addition, the Health and Safety Executive specifies that a break of 15/20 mins should be taken after every 2 hours of driving.
Last edited by Uplinker; 21st Oct 2013 at 08:16.
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Uplinker:
at least 11 hours rest every day - you can reduce this to 9 hours rest 3 times in a week
at least 11 hours rest every day - you can reduce this to 9 hours rest 3 times in a week
It is not the same in commercial aviation.
At the end of a duty pilots have to walk 2 km through the airport because walking is cheaper, fight their way through security, immigration, and customs; wait 45 minutes for the cheaper taxi to arrive, drive 45 minutes to a cheaper hotel; wait an hour for the cheaper room to be made ready; wash, eat and rest - and then fight your way through all that again in reverse order to get back to the cheaper aircraft.
AND DO ALL THIS WITHIN a 10 or 11 hour REST PERIOD.
Its not fun. It is not professional. And it is not safe.
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ORO.FTL.235 Rest periods
(b) Minimum rest period away from home base.
The minimum rest period provided before undertaking an FDP starting away from home base shall be at least as long as the preceding duty period, or 10 hours, whichever is greater. This period shall include an 8-hour sleep opportunity in addition to the time for travelling and physiological needs.
Following is from: Certification Specifications for flight time specification schemes. (DRAFT)
AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b) Rest periods
MINIMUM REST PERIOD AWAY FROM HOME BASE
The time allowed for physiological needs should be 1 hour. Consequently, if the travelling time to the suitable accommodation is more than 30 minutes, the operator should increase the rest period by twice the amount of difference of travelling time above 30 minutes.
Since it is quiet new and not that easy to find, above mentioned AMC might be a wrong document, but it was what i could find.
Any body knows when is the effective date?
It is mentioned:
Article 2
This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from [2 years after its entry into force].
(b) Minimum rest period away from home base.
The minimum rest period provided before undertaking an FDP starting away from home base shall be at least as long as the preceding duty period, or 10 hours, whichever is greater. This period shall include an 8-hour sleep opportunity in addition to the time for travelling and physiological needs.
Following is from: Certification Specifications for flight time specification schemes. (DRAFT)
AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b) Rest periods
MINIMUM REST PERIOD AWAY FROM HOME BASE
The time allowed for physiological needs should be 1 hour. Consequently, if the travelling time to the suitable accommodation is more than 30 minutes, the operator should increase the rest period by twice the amount of difference of travelling time above 30 minutes.
Since it is quiet new and not that easy to find, above mentioned AMC might be a wrong document, but it was what i could find.
Any body knows when is the effective date?
It is mentioned:
Article 2
This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from [2 years after its entry into force].
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The time allowed for physiological needs should be 1 hour. Consequently, if the travelling time to the suitable accommodation is more than 30 minutes, the operator should increase the rest period by twice the amount of difference of travelling time above 30 minutes.
Do not forget the need to eat, shower, and make a transition from work to sleep. We are not autonomons. And, what do the zero-hour contractors do about this "íncreased "rest peiod?" The policing of it will be up to them and their relaltionship with crewing, should they have been delayed. Success.
Do not forget the need to eat, shower, and make a transition from work to sleep. We are not autonomons. And, what do the zero-hour contractors do about this "íncreased "rest peiod?" The policing of it will be up to them and their relaltionship with crewing, should they have been delayed. Success.
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I've flown for a regional airline. Always amazed me you could fly all day long with no rest breaks on the turn around. Sure we were given 30 mins 'dinner' on one turn around but absolutely no rest with cleaners, dispatchers, fuelers, crew yacking on. I've also worked as an HGV driver, and that 45 mins break after 4.5 hours driving had to be away from the controls at your leisure and away from any work. A couple of guys were switching their tachos onto rest whilst parked on loading bays at the distribution centres, pulled out after unloading and pulled over by VOSA who were checking drivers weren't claiming rest whilst truck was being unloaded. Guys were fined. A break was just that a break.
Last edited by Wireless; 22nd Oct 2013 at 13:47.
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It's probably because the general public see the big nasty trucks every day in close proximity and can worry about what happens if one careens off the motorway in front of them.
Our profession is not so much in the general publics view and we have been very successful at hiding the effects of fatigue for so long that it is not a concern except to a small minority.
This industry is run by the bean counters, to them we are indeed automatons.
Our profession is not so much in the general publics view and we have been very successful at hiding the effects of fatigue for so long that it is not a concern except to a small minority.
This industry is run by the bean counters, to them we are indeed automatons.
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Following is from: Certification Specifications for flight time specification schemes. (DRAFT)
AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b) Rest periods
MINIMUM REST PERIOD AWAY FROM HOME BASE
The time allowed for physiological needs should be 1 hour. Consequently, if the travelling time to the suitable accommodation is more than 30 minutes, the operator should increase the rest period by twice the amount of difference of travelling time above 30 minutes.
Since it is quiet new and not that easy to find, above mentioned AMC might be a wrong document, but it was what i could find.
Any body knows when is the effective date?
It is mentioned:
Article 2
This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from [2 years after its entry into force]
AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b) Rest periods
MINIMUM REST PERIOD AWAY FROM HOME BASE
The time allowed for physiological needs should be 1 hour. Consequently, if the travelling time to the suitable accommodation is more than 30 minutes, the operator should increase the rest period by twice the amount of difference of travelling time above 30 minutes.
Since it is quiet new and not that easy to find, above mentioned AMC might be a wrong document, but it was what i could find.
Any body knows when is the effective date?
It is mentioned:
Article 2
This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from [2 years after its entry into force]
10Hrs rest away from base is the current minimum in Europe whereas in the UK its 11. If the spec comes in it will be assessed under FRMS by the Airline.
So is there a difference between the requirement of 10 hours during the night vv the day?. What is the reward vv what is the risk, the risks might outweigh the reward given most airlines desire for OTP. If so what will be the mitigation.
Silverstrata, and Truckflyer; I completely agree with you.
I find it very curious that pilots do not have the same duty and rest limitations as truck drivers - in fact we should have more stringent limitations than them, since what we are doing is far more potentially dangerous; at much higher speeds, in 3 dimensions, in the part of the atmosphere where humans cannot survive*:-
A truck driver smells smoke, so he pulls onto the hard shoulder, turns off the engine and gets out.
Two pilots are in their 9th duty hour and are over the ocean at 40,000'. They smell smoke as one engine catches fire...............
Over to the Union(s).........
(*There are no hard shoulders at 40,000' ! Humans cannot breath outside at 40,000'. And the temperature is -56 centigrade or lower)
(By the way, in case I fall foul of 'office worker-gate' again, may I make it clear that I totally support truckers and agree that they absolutely should have proper rest and breaks
).
I find it very curious that pilots do not have the same duty and rest limitations as truck drivers - in fact we should have more stringent limitations than them, since what we are doing is far more potentially dangerous; at much higher speeds, in 3 dimensions, in the part of the atmosphere where humans cannot survive*:-
A truck driver smells smoke, so he pulls onto the hard shoulder, turns off the engine and gets out.
Two pilots are in their 9th duty hour and are over the ocean at 40,000'. They smell smoke as one engine catches fire...............
Over to the Union(s).........
(*There are no hard shoulders at 40,000' ! Humans cannot breath outside at 40,000'. And the temperature is -56 centigrade or lower)
(By the way, in case I fall foul of 'office worker-gate' again, may I make it clear that I totally support truckers and agree that they absolutely should have proper rest and breaks
).
Last edited by Uplinker; 23rd Oct 2013 at 16:34.
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I don't think the tacho rules are so strict to appease the public. Most of the public have little idea of how strict or not they are and how they are enforced. The rules are enforced with a pedantic viciousness by the regulator, VOSA (known with fear as 'the ministry!'). An infringement of even a few minutes into a rest period or break can result with a fine. Fiddle your hours and you're looking at prison. it used to be more common to find unscrupulous transport firms encouraging 'running bent' by fudging records. Recent changes to technology of recording hours and increased enforcement has eaten away at this. The aviation system is archaic and slack in comparison.
Getting down to brass tacks how can operating one bit of heavy machinery require you take take a rest away from ALL duty after 4.5 hours yet another bit of heavy machinery affecting public safety is ok to operate all day long with no proper breaks.?
Getting down to brass tacks how can operating one bit of heavy machinery require you take take a rest away from ALL duty after 4.5 hours yet another bit of heavy machinery affecting public safety is ok to operate all day long with no proper breaks.?
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In a 12 -13 hour duty day, with 4 or more sectors, there is no dedicated break period, where pilot's are not working, where they are from from any flight related duty.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who is a doctor, and he was appalled by this, however unless people unite, it is hard to see how it will improve.
Years ago, when Niel Kinnock was EU commissioner for transport, and the new EU workers' directive came in, he assured there would be a transition period for public transport workers. I watched the office at my airline transform. Perviously, in the open-plan space, there had often been 3or 4 people to one large desk/table. Paper everywhere and tempers frayed. Now with the 45cubic meter rule each office worker had their own desk and peace and harmony. And their break every 2.5hrs etc. and lunch break in the fresh air.
We wondered about the 12 hours 2 of us spent cooped up in 6 cubic meters with no room to stand up and none of the other 'workers' directive' goodies.
(This includes a consideration for the working conditions of the cabin crew. Compare their environment to that of a shop or restaurant worker. Way below with no privacy or break, especially in a LoCo cabin. Don't even think about the appalling conditions on a night flight.)
Kinnock acknowledged you couldn't redesign a/c overnight and some form of compensation arrangement should be devised. Over time a better more comparable set of T's & C's would be introduced so public transport workers were not disadvantaged under the EU workers' directive.
Sounded good, but look what has happened in reality; quite the opposite. Who allowed that to happen? Both politicians, having their strings pulled by the money people, the XAA's for the same reason, and the workers/unions for not standing up and being firm and holding the politicians to their promises.
That's where we are today. And think about how bad it could really be if there were no FTL rules. As a/c performance/endurance has extended so have the FTL's. The money people hold sway and the safety margins and acceptable way of life are both eroded to the very edge.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who is a doctor, and he was appalled by this, however unless people unite, it is hard to see how it will improve.
Years ago, when Niel Kinnock was EU commissioner for transport, and the new EU workers' directive came in, he assured there would be a transition period for public transport workers. I watched the office at my airline transform. Perviously, in the open-plan space, there had often been 3or 4 people to one large desk/table. Paper everywhere and tempers frayed. Now with the 45cubic meter rule each office worker had their own desk and peace and harmony. And their break every 2.5hrs etc. and lunch break in the fresh air.
We wondered about the 12 hours 2 of us spent cooped up in 6 cubic meters with no room to stand up and none of the other 'workers' directive' goodies.
(This includes a consideration for the working conditions of the cabin crew. Compare their environment to that of a shop or restaurant worker. Way below with no privacy or break, especially in a LoCo cabin. Don't even think about the appalling conditions on a night flight.)
Kinnock acknowledged you couldn't redesign a/c overnight and some form of compensation arrangement should be devised. Over time a better more comparable set of T's & C's would be introduced so public transport workers were not disadvantaged under the EU workers' directive.
Sounded good, but look what has happened in reality; quite the opposite. Who allowed that to happen? Both politicians, having their strings pulled by the money people, the XAA's for the same reason, and the workers/unions for not standing up and being firm and holding the politicians to their promises.
That's where we are today. And think about how bad it could really be if there were no FTL rules. As a/c performance/endurance has extended so have the FTL's. The money people hold sway and the safety margins and acceptable way of life are both eroded to the very edge.
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This whole debacle is a direct result of the fact that we Flightcrew are not behaving as Officers but as greedy selfish children, noth worthy of our stripes, especially those "collegues" who allow pay to fly on their flightdeck.
Now is the time for a general and complete strike over the whole of Easa land, but again, most "collegues" are afraid, and do not have the slightest bit of Commander responsibility to act against a potential danger.
We as Officers have the DUTY to respond in SUCH A WAY THAT WILL INSURE SAFER REGULATIONS.
The ONLY WAY to do this is a GENERAL STRIKE.
Do not come up,with exuses like " but we are not allowed to strike in our company".
. Every employee within the EU has the right to strike. Yes, also in the UK.
I guarantee that only the threat of a complete stop of aviation will ensure a new and this time proper look at the regulations.
Now is the time for a general and complete strike over the whole of Easa land, but again, most "collegues" are afraid, and do not have the slightest bit of Commander responsibility to act against a potential danger.
We as Officers have the DUTY to respond in SUCH A WAY THAT WILL INSURE SAFER REGULATIONS.
The ONLY WAY to do this is a GENERAL STRIKE.
Do not come up,with exuses like " but we are not allowed to strike in our company".
. Every employee within the EU has the right to strike. Yes, also in the UK.I guarantee that only the threat of a complete stop of aviation will ensure a new and this time proper look at the regulations.
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Well said. To add another long forgotten snippet that illustrates the way in which the incumbents in the piloting profession started to allow conditions to deteriorate, for what ever the reason, is the upper deck B747-200. Remember this took place in the world's major legacy carriers who were all heavily unionised, as well; so I suspect financial gain had something to do with it. (Wide-body pay and all that guff at the same time; and later on the release to paster of the FE. More dosh solved many a thorny problem.)
The B707 had a reasonable range for a full crew on a single duty. B747 was designed to fly longer and crew needed some rest. The upper deck was so designed by the manufacturer and I assume authorised by the XAA's. It never happened, so ask yourselves why? Did the XAA's decide belatedly that it was not necessary and extended FTL's to suit the a/c, or did cash change hands with the crews? I don't know but I suspect.Whatever; the slippery slope was trodden upon and we've been sliding ever since. Is the bottom in sight? Not yet.
The B707 had a reasonable range for a full crew on a single duty. B747 was designed to fly longer and crew needed some rest. The upper deck was so designed by the manufacturer and I assume authorised by the XAA's. It never happened, so ask yourselves why? Did the XAA's decide belatedly that it was not necessary and extended FTL's to suit the a/c, or did cash change hands with the crews? I don't know but I suspect.Whatever; the slippery slope was trodden upon and we've been sliding ever since. Is the bottom in sight? Not yet.
Last edited by RAT 5; 24th Oct 2013 at 17:28.
Chances are those planners are not trained in anything other than putting bums in the seats at the lowest possible cost while maximizing their use of the rules to their advantage.
Sad to say but it sure looks like this is a done deal. The economics of it mean that the companies will lay on the full court press to get it through.
Every significant positive flight safety initiative has been the result of one or more smoking holes full of dead bodies. I don't see how forcing the adoption of sensible FTL's will be any different
Every significant positive flight safety initiative has been the result of one or more smoking holes full of dead bodies. I don't see how forcing the adoption of sensible FTL's will be any different
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Consider what the salary bill is for a large airline with 3000 pilots & 6000 C/A's. The bosses are in it to make maximum profit, not run a quality public service. They've established what the pax is prepared to pay and we see the subsequent profits. Imagine if they could get rid of 1 pilot: well a real qualified pilot. There have been, and continue to be, significant techno improvements and reliability enhancements that the chance of total failures is small. One pilot will be able to handle all the routine tasks of programming a computer. Taxi-takeoff- connect Autopilot-land, disconnect and taxi in. All with back up systems after back-up systems. You can fly a small jet with only 1 pilot, so why not a bigger one? The bag carrying apprentice will work for peanuts and keep an eye open.
Then the pax can take on board their own refreshments, self study the safety procedures before booking and sign a 'conditions acceptance' disclaimer. Then there only need be 1 C/A to smile and keep everyone happy.
The salary bill saving and increased profit - at the same ticket price - would be enormous; for the successful airlines. If the XAA's could be persuaded that there was not a safety consequence and it was necessary for the survival of the airline companies, the not so successful ones, and because there has become a shortage of numpties wanting to be pilots and C/A's, then it might just happen.
Tongue in cheek of course:
but I have worked for airlines where the FTL's were very flexible because the survival of the airline was more important than rigid compliance with the rules and blind eyes were turned. This is only the beginning of a thin wedge.
Then the pax can take on board their own refreshments, self study the safety procedures before booking and sign a 'conditions acceptance' disclaimer. Then there only need be 1 C/A to smile and keep everyone happy.
The salary bill saving and increased profit - at the same ticket price - would be enormous; for the successful airlines. If the XAA's could be persuaded that there was not a safety consequence and it was necessary for the survival of the airline companies, the not so successful ones, and because there has become a shortage of numpties wanting to be pilots and C/A's, then it might just happen.
Tongue in cheek of course:
but I have worked for airlines where the FTL's were very flexible because the survival of the airline was more important than rigid compliance with the rules and blind eyes were turned. This is only the beginning of a thin wedge.
The ONLY WAY to do this is a GENERAL STRIKE.
Or just work strictly to rule - NO discretion, NO accepting of deferred defects, fly the full procedure irrespective, or even go sick when you are not fit to fly.
Either way this is the only way to get the message across, apart from a few smoking holes in the ground maybe.
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Please push your local Pilot Union to work together with ECA, the European Cockpit Association, to work out a EASA wide action-plan to counteract and eliminate the threat of diminished safety due to Eurocrat and EASA incompetence.
Now is the time to act if you have ANY sense of responsibility and pride for your profession.
Those willing to accept these crimes against safety are simply not worth the stripes on their uniform and have no place on a flightdeck.
Sorry to sound harsh, but imminent threats need positive and effective action.
Now is the time to act if you have ANY sense of responsibility and pride for your profession.
Those willing to accept these crimes against safety are simply not worth the stripes on their uniform and have no place on a flightdeck.
Sorry to sound harsh, but imminent threats need positive and effective action.
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As I am just studying next months roster, I see I have 6 morning flights in a row, culminating with a few 4 sector day, now excuse the language, which DUMBWIT can NOT see that this is a safety risk.
Now by the end of this period, it will be natural for me to feel fatigue, if I feel fatigued should I just call in and say I am not fit to fly?
Now by the end of this period, it will be natural for me to feel fatigue, if I feel fatigued should I just call in and say I am not fit to fly?
Fatigued, you mean tired perhaps or suffer some sleepyness. Then how many days off do you get in the year. How much leave then we can make a judgement on fatigue. Don't just give us the nasty bits.
And which airline in the UK does 6 earlies in the row - which airline in the UK will do 6 earlies in a row when EASA FTL arrives. Want to have a bet with me?