Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Truckflyer, agree with you totally. We tried it in a company I worked for, and suggested that the Rostering Manager (that dreadful title "manager" again) shadowed a crew for a week. By that we meant sitting on the flight-deck, with all the glare, noise etc, not in a passenger seat, and taking in his stride all the changes of hotels, report times etc. However, he "couldn't be spared" from his "managerial" job, so nothing changed.
In another company, we were working multi-sector days right to the limit of duty, and requested that some form of meal be provided. When this was refused, we stopped after the fourth sector and went into the terminal for a cup of tea and a sandwich before sectors five and six. Two crews, two discretion reports a day for two weeks, until crew meals began to be provided.
In another company, we were working multi-sector days right to the limit of duty, and requested that some form of meal be provided. When this was refused, we stopped after the fourth sector and went into the terminal for a cup of tea and a sandwich before sectors five and six. Two crews, two discretion reports a day for two weeks, until crew meals began to be provided.
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Phil Bennion MEP
He is the prime driving force behind the EASA rules, I think he sees it as his Lib Dem 'Gift/Legacy' to Europe.
Obviously he's so fully up to speed on the difficulties of controlling his tractor whilst fatigued that he can be the instigator of telling us it's no problem landing a 200 tonne aircraft, in the dark at 150+ mph whilst fatigued. 
As someone stated above Fatigue is a serious issue brought about by constant disrupted sleep patterns and exacerbated by time zone changes. The affect of fatigue on core decision making skills can be extreme and, in an Australian scientific analysis, can be considered akin to the effects of alcohol in the bloodstream.
More interesting will be the reaction of the FAA and other worldwide aviation departments when they realise that some of the flight crew operating into their airspace might well be labouring under the effects of fatigue due to the idiocy of the EU law making process.
He is the prime driving force behind the EASA rules, I think he sees it as his Lib Dem 'Gift/Legacy' to Europe.
I am the Lib Dem MEP for the West Midlands region. As a Staffordshire farmer and economic policy expert I took office in March 2012, following the retirement of Liz Lynne MEP.
As someone stated above Fatigue is a serious issue brought about by constant disrupted sleep patterns and exacerbated by time zone changes. The affect of fatigue on core decision making skills can be extreme and, in an Australian scientific analysis, can be considered akin to the effects of alcohol in the bloodstream.
More interesting will be the reaction of the FAA and other worldwide aviation departments when they realise that some of the flight crew operating into their airspace might well be labouring under the effects of fatigue due to the idiocy of the EU law making process.
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Perhaps for regionals and biz jets but not for Long Haul and as it will be the European Long Haul jets landing into the States that's where the problems will come.
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Just had a look at the proposals and the FDP table. At the mo, off the top of my head in our outfit, we can do a 4 sector early starting at 0530 with a max FDP of 9 hours. With the new rules we can now do 11 hours 30 minutes?
If that's right... How on earth are these regs safer!! I honestly don't believe these politicians know what the ins & outs are and what it means to us and the passengers!! They must have been voting blind following what the party line was, having not read/understood the nitty gritty! Madness!!
If that's right... How on earth are these regs safer!! I honestly don't believe these politicians know what the ins & outs are and what it means to us and the passengers!! They must have been voting blind following what the party line was, having not read/understood the nitty gritty! Madness!!
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Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...
I honestly don't believe these politicians know what the ins & outs are and what it means to us and the passengers!! They must have been voting blind following what the party line was, having not read/understood the nitty gritty! Madness!!
Just like in the early 2000s when totally incompetent, easily manipulated and cheaply bought politicians worldwide removed the safety stops for the financial services sector, they now did the same for aviation! More crashes waiting to happen, but again the politicians and responsible authorities will claim that "they didn't see it coming."
truckflyer is spot on IMHO. Under-reporting by already unfit and fatigued pilots is the crux of the matter.
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Unless you have flown commercially I don't think you can understand the stress or fatigue crews deal with in the process of their duties, it looks too easy and for far too long our own self depreciation of "ohh it's all the autopilot" has been allowed to creep in to the public psyche. They don't and can't understand. Hence these ridiculous votes.
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UK Parliament gives nod to new EASA FDTLs.
from Hansard on yesterday's vote
[QUOTE]Civil Aviation Safety
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 12864/13, a draft Commission Regulation (EU) No. .../… of XXX amending Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012 laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to air operations pursuant to Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council; notes that the Government recognises the importance of managing crew fatigue to support civil aviation safety; supports the Government’s view that the measures will establish safety improvements across the European Union and maintain safety in the UK; and further supports the Government’s view that the measures respect subsidiarity principles and help to deliver a level playing field across the EU.—(John Penrose.)
The House divided:
Ayes 272, Noes 227/[QUOTE]
So the new EASA FDTLs have been rubber stamped by the UK Parliament with MPs voting along party lines.
We will look forward to hearing from our colleagues early next year how the new regulations are working.
[QUOTE]Civil Aviation Safety
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 12864/13, a draft Commission Regulation (EU) No. .../… of XXX amending Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012 laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to air operations pursuant to Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council; notes that the Government recognises the importance of managing crew fatigue to support civil aviation safety; supports the Government’s view that the measures will establish safety improvements across the European Union and maintain safety in the UK; and further supports the Government’s view that the measures respect subsidiarity principles and help to deliver a level playing field across the EU.—(John Penrose.)
The House divided:
Ayes 272, Noes 227/[QUOTE]
So the new EASA FDTLs have been rubber stamped by the UK Parliament with MPs voting along party lines.
We will look forward to hearing from our colleagues early next year how the new regulations are working.
Last edited by Vasco dePilot; 17th Oct 2013 at 08:06.
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.....Government’s view that the measures will establish safety improvements across the European Union and maintain safety in the UK; and further supports the Government’s view that the measures respect subsidiarity principles and help to deliver a level playing field across the EU.—(John Penrose.)
Here-in lies the problem. Firstly, the CAA have told UK government that the new EASA rules will not dilute UK safety margins. They didn't say they will not allow more work, as the example of an early start shows. The CAA seems to believe this increase not to be dangerous and the government has swallowed it. Secondly, the EU & UK governments have been told that there are some dodgy FTL's out there and a level playing field will improve safety. If we raise the standard of many FTL's and allow a few to deteriorate the overall average will be an improvement; so that's alright then. Rubber stamp. So many nationals fly on a/c of another state so the level playing field is necessary, but at a high standard not at the commercially driven lower standard.
Ultimately I believe it is down the sharp end drivers. Don't do the roster if you feel the slightest doubt. That is what has been rammed down our throats with all the new TEM stuff. Use it! Don't bleat about it afterwards. I know about the zero-hour contracts; that's another issue all together.
Here-in lies the problem. Firstly, the CAA have told UK government that the new EASA rules will not dilute UK safety margins. They didn't say they will not allow more work, as the example of an early start shows. The CAA seems to believe this increase not to be dangerous and the government has swallowed it. Secondly, the EU & UK governments have been told that there are some dodgy FTL's out there and a level playing field will improve safety. If we raise the standard of many FTL's and allow a few to deteriorate the overall average will be an improvement; so that's alright then. Rubber stamp. So many nationals fly on a/c of another state so the level playing field is necessary, but at a high standard not at the commercially driven lower standard.
Ultimately I believe it is down the sharp end drivers. Don't do the roster if you feel the slightest doubt. That is what has been rammed down our throats with all the new TEM stuff. Use it! Don't bleat about it afterwards. I know about the zero-hour contracts; that's another issue all together.
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Ultimately I believe it is down the sharp end drivers. Don't do the roster if you feel the slightest doubt. That is what has been rammed down our throats with all the new TEM stuff. Use it! Don't bleat about it afterwards. I know about the zero-hour contracts; that's another issue all together.
It's both funny and ironic to see how a lot of Anglo-Irish pilots are now kicking and screaming about the new FTL's, but that it's the same Anglo-Irish mentality that looks down on any pilot union going on strike to defend it's rights.
You can't have it both ways, and relying on regulators and politicians to stand up for you instead of a strong union has been proven to be fatally naive!!
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All I meant to say is that if you feel sick don't fly. Isn't that what you are supposed to do? If you get utterly stupid combinations that are going to burn you out and put you beyond the edge of your performance boundary then consider it very carefully. If necessary bail out of the 2nd one and perhaps, just perhaps, common sense might prevail making more sensible combinations. Ultimately it is you who decide not the max FTL's. They are written for equal humatons and you are all different.
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I have to agree, aviation is stuck in the dark ages with regards to it's ways, and lack of unions.
The low-cost, children of the magenta line generation threw out the baby with the bathwater, and opportunistic airline managers cleverly used this as a fulcrum to get rid of any coherency, professionalism (like the no blame culture) in our profession, whilst loading up on bonuses themselves.
As long as nobody crashes an aircraft then 'all is quiet on the Western front' for as far as any responsible manager/regulator is concerned.
So let's face it: nobody is going to deliberately bend/break/crash an aircraft on his/her watch. We know that, the airline managers know that and the politicians/regulators...they simply don't care.
...and so we push and push ourselves further and further on adrenaline and coffee, fighting fatigue (both short term and cumulative) and trying to adhere to an ever-increasing jungle of micromanagement rules that the office 'managers' throw at us...and all that on minimum flight plan fuel of course!
Tick tock...tick tock...tick tock...tick tock...tick tock...
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Rat5
All I meant to say is that if you feel sick don't fly. Isn't that what you are supposed to do?
All I meant to say is that if you feel sick don't fly. Isn't that what you are supposed to do?
And collect your P45 at the end of the week.
And collect your repossession notice at the ned of the season.
And collect your divorce papers at the end of the year.
Kerrching .... you have just won the Low Cost Lottery. Well done that man....
I think we need to do much better at marketing the reality of the pilot's job to all but in particular the legislators.
I think BALPA etc have done their best but there is still a long way to go. The reaction of the panel on the BBC Any Questions spoke volumes about our legislators knowledge (or rather ignorance) of the actuality of fatigue and the ramifications for flight safety.
I think BALPA etc have done their best but there is still a long way to go. The reaction of the panel on the BBC Any Questions spoke volumes about our legislators knowledge (or rather ignorance) of the actuality of fatigue and the ramifications for flight safety.
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I think we need to do much better at marketing the reality of the pilot's job to all but in particular the legislators.
The sad fact of life is that ticket price is king and the paying public don't care/want to know who is flying them, how fatigued they are or how poorly trained they are as long as ticket A price is less than ticket B price.
Always remember, if we do our job correctly to the limit of our professional ability and contain the problem/emergency/failure then we have done our professional best. But, the public, if we do our job right, will never ever see it and the airlines we work for don't care.
Hence we are in the position we are.
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What the public think
There have been several posts alluding to public opinion which seem to miss what it is;
The public the press and many "experts" think there is one set of Flight Time rules for all UK airlines. In fact basic guidance is translated into manuals by airlines which are approved by the CAA to grant an AOC. Airlines can then apply to change their manuals in light of their business operation and experience. Over time airlines manuals/rules change so much that it is difficult to believe they have the same origin.
Europe seem to agree by saying that by forcing the worst airlines/countries to improve while allowing the best to slip somewhat there will be an overall safety improvement since it tends to be the bottom of the safety pile who have accidents.
It is of course a basic tennet of the EE ideal that all businesses in all countries compete fairly by operating to the same rules
We at the pointed end want our bit to be the safest but they at the political end want to say that all EU citizens and undertakings are equal
The public the press and many "experts" think there is one set of Flight Time rules for all UK airlines. In fact basic guidance is translated into manuals by airlines which are approved by the CAA to grant an AOC. Airlines can then apply to change their manuals in light of their business operation and experience. Over time airlines manuals/rules change so much that it is difficult to believe they have the same origin.
Europe seem to agree by saying that by forcing the worst airlines/countries to improve while allowing the best to slip somewhat there will be an overall safety improvement since it tends to be the bottom of the safety pile who have accidents.
It is of course a basic tennet of the EE ideal that all businesses in all countries compete fairly by operating to the same rules
We at the pointed end want our bit to be the safest but they at the political end want to say that all EU citizens and undertakings are equal