Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
Then how many days off do you get in the year
I don't know about Trucker but I am contracted to work 39 hours per week - in other words the same as an office worker.
However, even our shortest flying day is the length of a normal office day, and usually we (and the cabin crews) work more like 9-12 hours in one shift - WITH NO BREAKS WHATSOEVER. AND WE EVEN HAVE TO EAT IN OUR SEATS WHILE FLYING THE PLANE.
So folk may think they see us at home more often than an office worker, but what they don't see is us getting up at 0330, or getting home at 0200 day after day and working 9-12 hour shifts. And they probably don't notice us working at weekends and over Christmas either.
I agree that the Unions and us members need to get much much stronger.
Another thought is to invite the CAA to join us in our cockpits for a whole week. Or two. Getting up the same time we do, driving in for briefing, then going through security and doing the whole day on the jumpseat. Then checking out, going home and doing it all again the next day - for a whole week, not just 2 short afternoon sectors. Lets have a couple of guys fly low cost short-haul, both earlies and lates. Another couple of guys fly longhaul bullets, and after a week or two ask them if they really think the FDP's are realistic and safe.....................
And where are Health and Safety - who rightly recommend that truck drivers have a 15-20 minute break every 2 hours? All HSE seem to do for us aircrews is tell us to do our hi-viz jackets up and don't bring yoghurt to work.
Last edited by Uplinker; 25th Oct 2013 at 16:39.
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Trucker
Fatigued, you mean tired perhaps or suffer some sleepyness. Then how many days off do you get in the year. How much leave then we can make a judgement on fatigue. Don't just give us the nasty bits.
And which airline in the UK does 6 earlies in the row - which airline in the UK will do 6 earlies in a row when EASA FTL arrives. Want to have a bet with me?
Fatigued, you mean tired perhaps or suffer some sleepyness. Then how many days off do you get in the year. How much leave then we can make a judgement on fatigue. Don't just give us the nasty bits.
And which airline in the UK does 6 earlies in the row - which airline in the UK will do 6 earlies in a row when EASA FTL arrives. Want to have a bet with me?
No, not sleepiness (note the spelling)!
We're talking nodding off on the approach. Unable to keep your eyes open mid flight. Multiple time zones in a few days. Disturbed sleep in uncomfortable beds in noisy hotels. Deep night flights. Feeling physically sick with FATIGUE after a flight. 14 hour plus duty periods, with no mandated break. Finishing on lates, starting on earlies...with 2 days off. But 2 days isn't 2 days really..
Not sleepiness.
And 10 days off a month. So 2 more than you...possibly...unless you count bank holidays, which we don't get. But do tell how many nights you spend at home each month?
And what's the worst thing that would happen if you got 'sleepy'? Spilt latte on that report due in next Tuesday week? Or 300 people dead?
I'm not a betting man, but I'd rather bet with you on when the first fatal accident occurs due to fatigue in the EU than when the inevitable 6 earlies in a row comes about!
Edited to add...
RAT 5 / Maximum
8 days in 28 days is based on Officebod working 9-5 Mon - Fri
with Sat / Sun off and 42.5 hrs a week, with Crews its 190 hours in 4 weeks so average of 47.5 hrs per week. The logic that SRG quote is if you work a busy 7 days, chances are the 14 day limit will catch you then the 4 week limit if your being worked really hard. (you also need to work to rolling totals,not fixed weeks)
So, we agree that you work 24/7 so cannot be compared to Office bods. However,I would argue that whilst you shouldn't be compared to Office Bods like us Rostering idiots,how about being compared similar "well paid" jobs such as Office Managers / Docters / Lawyers etc. Which of these work an average 47.5 week?. Not many, more like 70+ / 280 over 4 weeks etc.
That's why you have CAP371 as it gives you a certain level of protection,maybe not brilliant but i still believe CAP371 is out of date and is in urgent need of modernisation to take into account social views as well.
And Rat i know plenty of shift workers who do 7 nights,12 hrs (and have 6 days off) and quiet a few who do 2100-0530 Mon-Fri
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)
8 days in 28 days is based on Officebod working 9-5 Mon - Fri
with Sat / Sun off and 42.5 hrs a week, with Crews its 190 hours in 4 weeks so average of 47.5 hrs per week. The logic that SRG quote is if you work a busy 7 days, chances are the 14 day limit will catch you then the 4 week limit if your being worked really hard. (you also need to work to rolling totals,not fixed weeks)
So, we agree that you work 24/7 so cannot be compared to Office bods. However,I would argue that whilst you shouldn't be compared to Office Bods like us Rostering idiots,how about being compared similar "well paid" jobs such as Office Managers / Docters / Lawyers etc. Which of these work an average 47.5 week?. Not many, more like 70+ / 280 over 4 weeks etc.
That's why you have CAP371 as it gives you a certain level of protection,maybe not brilliant but i still believe CAP371 is out of date and is in urgent need of modernisation to take into account social views as well.
And Rat i know plenty of shift workers who do 7 nights,12 hrs (and have 6 days off) and quiet a few who do 2100-0530 Mon-Fri
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)
Last edited by energiser; 25th Oct 2013 at 17:44.
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A simple clause should be added to the 'working hours directive' -
"It should be noted that the hours in this directive are maximum hours and flight crew are not expected to be continually rostered for maximum hours nor expected to work maximum hours continually. If an aircraft accident is investigated by the appropriate accident investigation body and fatigue is found to be a contributory cause, regardless of whether the crew involved reported fatigue, the rostering of the air carrier involved shall also be investigated to assess whether the crew rostering by that air carrier was a contributory cause to the aircraft accident."
Simple allocation of accountability to a beancounter - it works quite well.
"It should be noted that the hours in this directive are maximum hours and flight crew are not expected to be continually rostered for maximum hours nor expected to work maximum hours continually. If an aircraft accident is investigated by the appropriate accident investigation body and fatigue is found to be a contributory cause, regardless of whether the crew involved reported fatigue, the rostering of the air carrier involved shall also be investigated to assess whether the crew rostering by that air carrier was a contributory cause to the aircraft accident."
Simple allocation of accountability to a beancounter - it works quite well.
Last edited by Ian W; 25th Oct 2013 at 17:41. Reason: format
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Ian W, you are proposing the problem is solved by waiting for the tombstones and then trying to locate the relevant suit who organised/authorised that company's roster?
I thought we as ProfPilots were here to try to stop the accident BEFORE it happens?
The suit concerned will have long departed the location and your promised sanction is as toothless as a Pilots' Union!
Just heard the UK teachers have called off a threatened strike because Ministers are prepared to meet them to discuss their grievances. Does this type of action sound familiar?
Even if they get fobbed off with platitudes, smoke and mirrors, the tactic does seem to be effective.
If even the THREAT of industrial (in)action can achieve this, then what are our toothless ones waiting for??!!
I thought we as ProfPilots were here to try to stop the accident BEFORE it happens?
The suit concerned will have long departed the location and your promised sanction is as toothless as a Pilots' Union!
Just heard the UK teachers have called off a threatened strike because Ministers are prepared to meet them to discuss their grievances. Does this type of action sound familiar?
Even if they get fobbed off with platitudes, smoke and mirrors, the tactic does seem to be effective.
If even the THREAT of industrial (in)action can achieve this, then what are our toothless ones waiting for??!!
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 25th Oct 2013 at 18:06.
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Ian W, you are proposing the problem is solved by waiting for the tombstones and then trying to locate the relevant suit who organised/authorised that company's roster?
I thought we as ProfPilots were here to try to stop the accident BEFORE it happens?
The suit concerned will have long departed the location and your promised sanction is as toothless as a Pilots' Union!
I thought we as ProfPilots were here to try to stop the accident BEFORE it happens?
The suit concerned will have long departed the location and your promised sanction is as toothless as a Pilots' Union!
With the amendment that I propose they cannot use that defence they are obliged to take note of the fatigue effects of the hours they roster. I can assure you for a beancounter being up in front of the leather top desk is something they will avoid far more than over rostering you. They are not used to being held accountable for anything. What the addition does is place a duty of assuring that crew are not fatigued by their rostering - which I thought was the entire point.
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WELL SAID TRUCKFLYER ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Somewhat more informative and likely to stir the brain cells than proposed clauses tacked onto the looming Eurotrash FTLs.
The beancounters have been operating in this mode for far too long, but do we have to wait for the H F accident with multiple fatalities/injuries and lawyers hovering like flies around a lump of
on a hot summers day?
I fear we will, unless some industrial muscle can be displayed.
C'mon BALPA and ECA and the rest of the subscription farmers, show us what you're made of, or stop wasting members' money and hope ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Somewhat more informative and likely to stir the brain cells than proposed clauses tacked onto the looming Eurotrash FTLs.
The beancounters have been operating in this mode for far too long, but do we have to wait for the H F accident with multiple fatalities/injuries and lawyers hovering like flies around a lump of
on a hot summers day?I fear we will, unless some industrial muscle can be displayed.
C'mon BALPA and ECA and the rest of the subscription farmers, show us what you're made of, or stop wasting members' money and hope ! ! ! ! ! ! !
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Definition of fatigued...
If you go to bed dog-tired and hardly able to function properly - have a really good sleep - but wake up dog-tired and hardly able to function properly: then you are fatigued.
BT DT and got several of the T-shirts.
If you go to bed dog-tired and hardly able to function properly - have a really good sleep - but wake up dog-tired and hardly able to function properly: then you are fatigued.
BT DT and got several of the T-shirts.
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The 'how many days off' question is a complete red herring. It has been said many times by sleep analysts that continued lack of sleep will lead to subtle fatigue; the worse kind. The kind which you may not realise you have, which therefore you can not counter by being extra careful; the kind that can even lead you to believe you are doing a good job when you're not; the kind that lets you think you are bullet proof and an ace. How is this continued loss of sleep achieved? By getting up at 03.30 repeatedly over a few days or going to bed at 01.30 repeatedly over a few days and having the sleep disturbed before it was completed in depth and fully. I.e. good REM sleep. The disturbance is called family life or hotel doors/vacuum cleaners. I once had 5 earlies where the last one was TFS, the longest roster in the network. I think common sense was absent in rostering.
How is this lack of sleep & acute tiredness recovered from? Only by good deep REM sleep. Not cat naps, not siestas. That's what the experts tell us. Days off are supposed to be to create a healthy balance between work & social life, not to sleep and recover from a continual and tiring lack of sleep. The sleep recovery needs to be immediate, so the total days off in a month, quarter or year is totally irrelevant. The blind eye that XAA's and the airlines are turning regarding contract crews commuting on unaccounted for 'rest days' is bordering on negligent and certainly way outside the moral spirit of the rules. There is no 'spirit of the rules'. A/c have limitations and we as pilots use them and so does maintenance. IR's have limitations and the TRE's use them; Ground exams have limitations and XAA's use them. FTL's have limitations and rostering uses them, regularly, but the spirit of those rules is ignored. The XAA's know this because it has been argued about for decades. The limits should be there to allow necessary flexibility in the often disrupted schedule. Discretion should be just that, not expected and subtly planned for; as was the case in 1 of my airlines, and where the XAA was conveniently deaf & blind.
Why not have an FTL limit AND IT IS JUST THAT. Maximum daily rostering is to limit -1.30hrs. Maximum week is limit -5hrs. Monthly is limit - 10hrs. Off duty is minimum +2hrs. Annual stays at 900. Then when the inevitable poo hits the fan the limit comes into play for a one off scenario, not the regular day in day out. The 'spirit' would return. I agree this is more for short haul operations. Long-haul ops, heavy crew with proper rest is another environment and needs its own tailored rules. If you've a bunk then perhaps the difference between 12 & 14hrs is not so great for a single duty. Much will depend on the recovery rest before the next duty.
One set of rules does not suit all. I wonder how much in-depth consultation into FTL's included the crews. It should have been extensive. We should not be arguing about this after the event; we should have been in there at the start of the consultation. If we were excluded, then would have been the time to protest. We live in an environment where proaction is always better than reaction.
Boeing trumpeted that crews had been involved, extensively, in the design of B777. We were going to use it; we knew the problems in earlier designs. Use our knowledge to prevent their re-occurance. Sound common sense. The same should have applied to FTL's. We are orientated to complete the mission. We are success orientated. This is a well known characteristic, not always to the benefit of the operation, but that's being addressed. We are educated and aware of the financial realities of a business in a cut-throat world. To the best of my knowledge no airline has gone bust through direct crew action, but nearly every airline has gone bust through direct management action, or lack of it. Treat us fairly with respect and we'll get the job done. We want to protect our careers and that means keeping the company flying. We are not short-term profit monkeys, we are in it for the long-term. I know of many airlines where crews have taken a reduction in salary & benefits, even job shared, to keep the airline going in rough times and help save jobs. The management doing the same? doubtful.
This whole debate is in great danger of creating a real us & them relationship. Them being company office workers, management, XAA's and the guys at EASA. This is not healthy and needs addressing very quickly. In an industry that screams TEM & CRM why is even EASA flying in the opposite direction? It does make you wonder why their mandatory training subjects are not part of their own philosophy. It's the "don't do what I do, do what I say," syndrome. Unprofessional and not worthy of the overall ruling body.
How is this lack of sleep & acute tiredness recovered from? Only by good deep REM sleep. Not cat naps, not siestas. That's what the experts tell us. Days off are supposed to be to create a healthy balance between work & social life, not to sleep and recover from a continual and tiring lack of sleep. The sleep recovery needs to be immediate, so the total days off in a month, quarter or year is totally irrelevant. The blind eye that XAA's and the airlines are turning regarding contract crews commuting on unaccounted for 'rest days' is bordering on negligent and certainly way outside the moral spirit of the rules. There is no 'spirit of the rules'. A/c have limitations and we as pilots use them and so does maintenance. IR's have limitations and the TRE's use them; Ground exams have limitations and XAA's use them. FTL's have limitations and rostering uses them, regularly, but the spirit of those rules is ignored. The XAA's know this because it has been argued about for decades. The limits should be there to allow necessary flexibility in the often disrupted schedule. Discretion should be just that, not expected and subtly planned for; as was the case in 1 of my airlines, and where the XAA was conveniently deaf & blind.
Why not have an FTL limit AND IT IS JUST THAT. Maximum daily rostering is to limit -1.30hrs. Maximum week is limit -5hrs. Monthly is limit - 10hrs. Off duty is minimum +2hrs. Annual stays at 900. Then when the inevitable poo hits the fan the limit comes into play for a one off scenario, not the regular day in day out. The 'spirit' would return. I agree this is more for short haul operations. Long-haul ops, heavy crew with proper rest is another environment and needs its own tailored rules. If you've a bunk then perhaps the difference between 12 & 14hrs is not so great for a single duty. Much will depend on the recovery rest before the next duty.
One set of rules does not suit all. I wonder how much in-depth consultation into FTL's included the crews. It should have been extensive. We should not be arguing about this after the event; we should have been in there at the start of the consultation. If we were excluded, then would have been the time to protest. We live in an environment where proaction is always better than reaction.
Boeing trumpeted that crews had been involved, extensively, in the design of B777. We were going to use it; we knew the problems in earlier designs. Use our knowledge to prevent their re-occurance. Sound common sense. The same should have applied to FTL's. We are orientated to complete the mission. We are success orientated. This is a well known characteristic, not always to the benefit of the operation, but that's being addressed. We are educated and aware of the financial realities of a business in a cut-throat world. To the best of my knowledge no airline has gone bust through direct crew action, but nearly every airline has gone bust through direct management action, or lack of it. Treat us fairly with respect and we'll get the job done. We want to protect our careers and that means keeping the company flying. We are not short-term profit monkeys, we are in it for the long-term. I know of many airlines where crews have taken a reduction in salary & benefits, even job shared, to keep the airline going in rough times and help save jobs. The management doing the same? doubtful.
This whole debate is in great danger of creating a real us & them relationship. Them being company office workers, management, XAA's and the guys at EASA. This is not healthy and needs addressing very quickly. In an industry that screams TEM & CRM why is even EASA flying in the opposite direction? It does make you wonder why their mandatory training subjects are not part of their own philosophy. It's the "don't do what I do, do what I say," syndrome. Unprofessional and not worthy of the overall ruling body.
After thirty seven years of flying and thirty five being paid to do so, I am coming to the end of my busiest ever year in terms of hours flown. Quite frankly I am somewhat tired at the moment what with the endless changes from early starts to late finishes, shorthaul to medium to longhaul, hotels, time zones, delays, slots, tech issues and the like. I do not burn my candle at both ends, no smoking, no drinking, a bit of exercise from time to time, so I do try to manage my life accordingly.
Now some of the rules are now to be relaxed having been voted in by European politicians with no understanding of the aviation business. All airlines will take the first opportunity fo use these changes to their best advantage as one would expect.
To paraphrase the late lamented Peter Cook;
' Perkins, we need someone to make a futile sacrifice........'
Now some of the rules are now to be relaxed having been voted in by European politicians with no understanding of the aviation business. All airlines will take the first opportunity fo use these changes to their best advantage as one would expect.
To paraphrase the late lamented Peter Cook;
' Perkins, we need someone to make a futile sacrifice........'
Last edited by beamer; 26th Oct 2013 at 19:04.
Another tack on the fatigue issue is the long term effects on health caused by constant long duty periods which disrupt the normal sleeping pattern etc.
I suspect in the years to come we will see more and more pilots losing their medicals or having to retire early due to health issues. And that's before we mention the affliction which is rarely mentioned viz. mental illness.
I see the convergence of many factors in the airline industry and the debilitating effects of constant and never ending disruptive work patterns is certainly one of them.
I suspect in the years to come we will see more and more pilots losing their medicals or having to retire early due to health issues. And that's before we mention the affliction which is rarely mentioned viz. mental illness.
I see the convergence of many factors in the airline industry and the debilitating effects of constant and never ending disruptive work patterns is certainly one of them.
And Rat i know plenty of shift workers who do 7 nights,12 hrs (and have 6 days off) and quiet a few who do 2100-0530 Mon-Fri
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)
The point here is that our job is potentially extremely dangerous with a significant risk to life if we get it wrong.
Therefore, it should be ensured that pilots and cabin crew are most definitely properly rested before their duties.
How many more accidents will it take for this simple fact to sink in?
Last edited by Uplinker; 27th Oct 2013 at 08:06.
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Q. "How many more accidents will it take for this simple fact to sink in?"
A. Lots, or until the CEOs and others high in the food chain are seen on TV/press being led off to prison in handcuffs and their homes and assets seized following a successful quick prosecution for corporate manslaughter.
Meantime I will follow the high-speed taxying trials prior to the first solo pig flight with great interest and a few Euros on which will happen first..............
From this clip we are told the NTSB looks at the last 72 hours of an accident crew's time before the accident. I presume their scheduling folks and higher suits are worried about what may crawl out of the woodwork?
But why only 72 hours if there is an attempt to ELIMINATE FATIGUE as a contributory cause??
A. Lots, or until the CEOs and others high in the food chain are seen on TV/press being led off to prison in handcuffs and their homes and assets seized following a successful quick prosecution for corporate manslaughter.
Meantime I will follow the high-speed taxying trials prior to the first solo pig flight with great interest and a few Euros on which will happen first..............
From this clip we are told the NTSB looks at the last 72 hours of an accident crew's time before the accident. I presume their scheduling folks and higher suits are worried about what may crawl out of the woodwork?
But why only 72 hours if there is an attempt to ELIMINATE FATIGUE as a contributory cause??
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Another tack on the fatigue issue is the long term effects on health caused by constant long duty periods which disrupt the normal sleeping pattern etc.
I suspect in the years to come we will see more and more pilots losing their medicals or having to retire early due to health issues. And that's before we mention the affliction which is rarely mentioned viz. mental illness.
I see the convergence of many factors in the airline industry and the debilitating effects of constant and never ending disruptive work patterns is certainly one of them.
This will be an interesting one. Years ago there was a perception that pilots died young. We all knew of guys who croaked in mid-60's. It was conjectured that pressurisation, radiation, sleep disturbance, lack of exercise while at work, disrupted eating habits, bad or no balance between work & social life etc.We wondered why guys with a medical every 6/12 months then keeled over quite soon after retiring; and this was for guys who retried at 55-ish who should have looked forward to a reasonable life style & pension. Are some investigation we were told the death age amongst retired pilots was national average.
Now, with guys working quite a different life style, flying until 65, retiring to a hopefully reasonable life style, but with no or very little company pension, it will be interesting to see if the death ages change. Too early yet, but no question the strain of the working life is far greater than it ever was, and more much longer.
I suspect in the years to come we will see more and more pilots losing their medicals or having to retire early due to health issues. And that's before we mention the affliction which is rarely mentioned viz. mental illness.
I see the convergence of many factors in the airline industry and the debilitating effects of constant and never ending disruptive work patterns is certainly one of them.
This will be an interesting one. Years ago there was a perception that pilots died young. We all knew of guys who croaked in mid-60's. It was conjectured that pressurisation, radiation, sleep disturbance, lack of exercise while at work, disrupted eating habits, bad or no balance between work & social life etc.We wondered why guys with a medical every 6/12 months then keeled over quite soon after retiring; and this was for guys who retried at 55-ish who should have looked forward to a reasonable life style & pension. Are some investigation we were told the death age amongst retired pilots was national average.
Now, with guys working quite a different life style, flying until 65, retiring to a hopefully reasonable life style, but with no or very little company pension, it will be interesting to see if the death ages change. Too early yet, but no question the strain of the working life is far greater than it ever was, and more much longer.
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Anyone in the know?
At Post #150, I asked for any insight that any of you may have about the state of the proposed Certification Specifications for flight time specification schemes.
Can anyone update me on this technical stuff rather than the political stuff, please?
Can anyone update me on this technical stuff rather than the political stuff, please?
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4 Dogs - to my knowledge not published yet.
Here's a re-print from the Daily Mail of today
" A fifth nod off at the wheel"
Almost one in five drivers have dozed off at the wheel according to a report. Of them, three in ten did so on the motorway while doing up to 70 mph. The study found a quarter of men have fallen asleep while driving, twice as likely as women (13%)
The study looked at how often tiredness or lack of concentration caused accidents. 3 in ten drivers have experienced an accident because of a lapse in concentration from just missing a pedestrian to hitting another vehicle. Drivers are advised to take a 15 min break every two hours. However a third are so eager to reach their destination they will ignore feelings of fatigue
So truck driver, you feel tired your 6th early, absolutely agree. Where's the danger though - on the aircraft, two Pilots, automation, Atc, quick nap in the cruise (or break perhaps Uplinker), or when your driving home.
And why not email your Chief Pilot than the Rosterer????
Lastly - why if there is all this fatigue out there - EU FTL under SPQ has been out ther a long time now - why no accidents?
Here's a re-print from the Daily Mail of today
" A fifth nod off at the wheel"
Almost one in five drivers have dozed off at the wheel according to a report. Of them, three in ten did so on the motorway while doing up to 70 mph. The study found a quarter of men have fallen asleep while driving, twice as likely as women (13%)
The study looked at how often tiredness or lack of concentration caused accidents. 3 in ten drivers have experienced an accident because of a lapse in concentration from just missing a pedestrian to hitting another vehicle. Drivers are advised to take a 15 min break every two hours. However a third are so eager to reach their destination they will ignore feelings of fatigue
So truck driver, you feel tired your 6th early, absolutely agree. Where's the danger though - on the aircraft, two Pilots, automation, Atc, quick nap in the cruise (or break perhaps Uplinker), or when your driving home.
And why not email your Chief Pilot than the Rosterer????
Lastly - why if there is all this fatigue out there - EU FTL under SPQ has been out ther a long time now - why no accidents?
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Lastly - why if there is all this fatigue out there - EU FTL under SPQ has been out ther a long time now - why no accidents?
The fact that you die a few years earlier from all this stress, fatigue and adrenaline is only a plus in the eyes of the politicians/regulators and management because the government (i.e. politicians and regulators) no longer has to pay you a pension and the management can replace you with someone cheaper.
Think I'm cynical, funny or paranoid? Just look at how most airline are run by beancounters these days. They don't give a rat's @ss about you, your health, your private life or your family.
In the eyes of the empire builders men are not men, but instruments. - Napoleon Bonaparte
Also our bodies are working quite hard during flight. (Not physically) due the cabin alt + dry air that in most pilots homes is not the case. Also lots of liquids drunk & most of it breathed out not pee'd out. So outside body thinks ah desert conserve water. Inside streuth it's a flood.
Funny how it is only after you have done the job for a while you realise how "knackering" it can be.
Funny how it is only after you have done the job for a while you realise how "knackering" it can be.
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Wrong Metrics
The issue here is that the measures of fatigue are incorrect. It is extremely simple to measure just duty hours and hours off - but that is just an indicator of potential fatigue. All hours are not equal. If flights are difficult with multiple changes and replans in poor weather with challenging landings then the fatigue will build up faster; then add early starts or late finishes or time zone changes which all exacerbate the problems. But the nice simple hours on hours off metrics do not account for that.
I am not sure how the problem will be solved. Ideally there needs to be some kind of fatigue scale that actually measures fatigue.
I am not sure how the problem will be solved. Ideally there needs to be some kind of fatigue scale that actually measures fatigue.
Lastly - why if there is all this fatigue out there - EU FTL under SPQ has been out ther a long time now - why no accidents?
CAP 371 was supposed to represent absolute limits on rostering. However what is happening now - to save money - is that rosters are being routinely brought right up to the limits of CAP 371 on a regular basis. This means that airlines need employ fewer pilots (and cabin crew), but it also means that we are getting more and more knackered, because we are hitting the limits on a regular basis, instead of only now and then as it used to be.
Our maximum annual airborne hours are limited to 900, (this does not include traveling to work, pre-flight briefing, going through security, walking out to the plane, preparing the plane for flight, the turnaround at the destination or the post flight duties). I did 870 one year, doing 4 sector days and 6 on 2 off duties, and I was like a zombie.
We are trying to point this out BEFORE another accident occurs. It is about safety, pure and simple.
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Why are ATCO hours different to pilots
I'm curious given that the CAA regulates air traffic controllers why they think an air traffic controller can only work an hour or two without a break, why their shifts are limited to 6 hours and why they must have an hour break for lunch etc and yet the same CAA think it's quite safe for a pilot to work 11-12 hours continuously with no breaks and no lunch hour in a pressurised tube breathing thin air???
Is it as we always suspected that pilots are actually supermen compared to mere mortals, criss crossing the globe and rising before dawn day after day with barely a trace of a yawn...
I think not - hypocrisy - that's what it is and a complete lack of concern for either the welfare of staff or the safety of the travelling public by the airlines, the regulators and the politicians.
I spent over ten years as a manager in a very large UK company running multi-million pound projects and never did I feel as completely tired as I have done many times while at the controls of an airliner...
The simple reality is that as a pilot you just never get into a routine of sleep the way you can as an office worker and therein lies the problem...
Is it as we always suspected that pilots are actually supermen compared to mere mortals, criss crossing the globe and rising before dawn day after day with barely a trace of a yawn...
I think not - hypocrisy - that's what it is and a complete lack of concern for either the welfare of staff or the safety of the travelling public by the airlines, the regulators and the politicians.
I spent over ten years as a manager in a very large UK company running multi-million pound projects and never did I feel as completely tired as I have done many times while at the controls of an airliner...
The simple reality is that as a pilot you just never get into a routine of sleep the way you can as an office worker and therein lies the problem...