Ryanair secrets?
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Sober Lark
...produced by anonymous, unverified information that they only made the barest of attempts to verify but decided to present it...
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SOS, on an issue of such importantce where the leaders of the group providing the information have other motives of course I'd be looking at the likes of statistical fallacy and manipulation etc. When the program makers do not provide the public with full information then I can only mistrust it.
Regarding the comments on IAA, gambling, fatal accidents etc. If Ryanair were not safe they'd be uninsurable or couldn't afford their aviation insurance premium.
Regarding the comments on IAA, gambling, fatal accidents etc. If Ryanair were not safe they'd be uninsurable or couldn't afford their aviation insurance premium.
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When the program makers do not provide the public with full information then I can only mistrust it.
At the end of the day the programme was saying that many RYR pilots are unhappy with the 'safety culture' of the airline. This seems to be borne out by many other sources.
Despite your 'conspiracy theory' about the Ryanair Pilots Group, can you name me another major airline that has such an orgainisation set up for its pilots to allow them to express their concerns free from harassment by their management?
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Blind Squirrel states - 'claims of an excessively cozy relationship between the IAA and FR'.
What exactly do you mean suggesting a 'cozy relationship' between the IAA & FR?
Now BS, if you had suggested that because of the non performing regulation in Ireland leading to the country going bankrupt, is it possible a recurrence of a similar inability to regulate the aviation sector meaningfully may indeed be 'deeply disturbing'?
I would be astonished if the IAA would allow themselves get into a 'cozy relationship' with any Airline leading to a compromising of the regulation required.
Of course one must take into account the fact that because Ryanair is an Irish registered airline it has led to the creation of dozens of extra jobs in the IAA!!!
Now BS might this fact be considered 'deeply disturbing'?
What exactly do you mean suggesting a 'cozy relationship' between the IAA & FR?
Now BS, if you had suggested that because of the non performing regulation in Ireland leading to the country going bankrupt, is it possible a recurrence of a similar inability to regulate the aviation sector meaningfully may indeed be 'deeply disturbing'?
I would be astonished if the IAA would allow themselves get into a 'cozy relationship' with any Airline leading to a compromising of the regulation required.
Of course one must take into account the fact that because Ryanair is an Irish registered airline it has led to the creation of dozens of extra jobs in the IAA!!!
Now BS might this fact be considered 'deeply disturbing'?
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No conspiracy SOS. It is obvious what this is really about. Ryanair is the largest non-unionised airline on this side of the Atlantic and some are not happy about it. These persons sought employment, knowing full well the terms of that employment and once in they think by hook or by crook or other devious methods they will earn union recognition.
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Ryanair is the largest non-unionised airline on this side of the Atlantic and some are not happy about it.
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I thought the program was pretty poor. Too much time spent filming 'pilots' wandering around a futuristic greenhouse, not enough time asking the right people the right questions.
They were never going to go very deep in 25 minutes, and the reporter was certainly no Paxman, but as a passenger watching it i would learn the following;
After diverting half way across Spain for thunderstorms, the planes had about 30 minutes of fuel left, which is the legal limit. so that's ok. same as sell by dates on food, or tread depth on tyres. if it was dangerous to only have 30 minutes left, then the legal limit would be an hour, or two.....
RyanAir claim the Ryanair pilots group was set up by rival airlines. we then see the Ryanair pilots group chairman, Evert Van Zwol, who works for KLM. hmmmm
it was claimed pilots have complained directly to the IAA, who ignore them. The IAA say they replied to all contacts. someone's telling porkies, but the program didn't bother to find out who.
The Manchester/Memmingen incident was mentioned, but it sounded like pilot error, not company policy. After all, company policy isn't to crash near the airport.
the deep routed concerns about passenger safety the program claimed to be exposing, never really got exposed. the three fuel incidents are already well known, and nothing else really came out of the program. The pilots poll was mentioned, but nothing substantial came from it.
Back lit actors, with dodgy voice overs don't really carry any weight at all (who picked the voice overs?????) The Spanish atc had too much screen time, the other experts just stated the obvious.
A 20 minute interview with Cpt Goss would have been much more revealing.
I don't know what the programs intentions were, but I doubt it achieved them. All they managed to say was "Three Ryanair planes didn't crash or run out of fuel. this is really bad'
very poor journalism
They were never going to go very deep in 25 minutes, and the reporter was certainly no Paxman, but as a passenger watching it i would learn the following;
After diverting half way across Spain for thunderstorms, the planes had about 30 minutes of fuel left, which is the legal limit. so that's ok. same as sell by dates on food, or tread depth on tyres. if it was dangerous to only have 30 minutes left, then the legal limit would be an hour, or two.....
RyanAir claim the Ryanair pilots group was set up by rival airlines. we then see the Ryanair pilots group chairman, Evert Van Zwol, who works for KLM. hmmmm
it was claimed pilots have complained directly to the IAA, who ignore them. The IAA say they replied to all contacts. someone's telling porkies, but the program didn't bother to find out who.
The Manchester/Memmingen incident was mentioned, but it sounded like pilot error, not company policy. After all, company policy isn't to crash near the airport.
the deep routed concerns about passenger safety the program claimed to be exposing, never really got exposed. the three fuel incidents are already well known, and nothing else really came out of the program. The pilots poll was mentioned, but nothing substantial came from it.
Back lit actors, with dodgy voice overs don't really carry any weight at all (who picked the voice overs?????) The Spanish atc had too much screen time, the other experts just stated the obvious.
A 20 minute interview with Cpt Goss would have been much more revealing.
I don't know what the programs intentions were, but I doubt it achieved them. All they managed to say was "Three Ryanair planes didn't crash or run out of fuel. this is really bad'
very poor journalism
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"The IAA insisted that Ryanair’s fuel policy is in line with EU regulations"
And there lies the problem. This is the EU that that hands out AOCs to "Tom, Dick & Harry". (Remember Cork).
And there lies the problem. This is the EU that that hands out AOCs to "Tom, Dick & Harry". (Remember Cork).
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SOS, you could make a long list but don't forget to put Passengers on it.
Ask Channel 4 to arrange another survey and see how many Ryanair pilots also hold shares. If they were so fearful then why would they hold shares themselves?
Remember what the unions did to the UK car industry only to benefit of the Germans.
Ask Channel 4 to arrange another survey and see how many Ryanair pilots also hold shares. If they were so fearful then why would they hold shares themselves?
Remember what the unions did to the UK car industry only to benefit of the Germans.
Last edited by Sober Lark; 16th Aug 2013 at 16:02.
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Ireland is in the process of passing the Protected Disclosures Bill 2013.
Unfortunately it hasn't made law yet...
Otherwise a safety based disclosure would be protected (although maybe not to the media).
Unfortunately it hasn't made law yet...
Otherwise a safety based disclosure would be protected (although maybe not to the media).
compete with SWA
SS, if you meant SouthWest Airlines for SWA , most pilots would be very happy with that. Their pilots are the best paid in the US by a good margin and they have have never taken a pay cut. A good number of South West employees are very wealthy due to their shares.
I will say that any pilot in North America that went to the media, identified themselves as a pilot employee and said their operator has safety issues, or anything else for that matter, they would be fired.
I will say that any pilot in North America that went to the media, identified themselves as a pilot employee and said their operator has safety issues, or anything else for that matter, they would be fired.
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I will say that any pilot in North America that went to the media, identified themselves as a pilot employee and said their operator has safety issues, or anything else for that matter, they would be fired.
The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has ordered AirTran Airways, a subsidiary of Southwest Airlines, to reinstate a former pilot who was fired after he reported numerous mechanical concerns to the agency.
The pilot’s complaint alleged that the airline removed him from flight status on Aug. 23, 2007, pending an investigative hearing regarding a sudden spike in the pilot’s mechanical malfunction reports. Subsequently, the airline held an internal investigative hearing on Sept. 6, 2007, which lasted little more than 15 minutes.
One week later, the airline terminated the pilot’s employment, claiming that he did not satisfactorily answer a question regarding the spike in the number of malfunction reports he filed. OSHA found that the pilot did not refuse to answer any questions during the hearing, answers to questions were appropriate, and the action taken by the airline was retaliatory.
An investigation conducted under OSHA’s Whistleblower Protection Program determined that the pilot’s termination was a retaliatory act in violation of federal whistleblower provisions.
In addition to ordering the pilot’s reinstatement, OSHA also ordered AirTran to pay the pilot more than $1 million in back wages, interest, and compensatory damages.
“Airline workers must be free to raise safety and security concerns, and companies that diminish those rights through intimidation or retaliation must be held accountable,” said OSHA Assistant Secretary Dr. David Michaels. “Airline safety is of vital importance, not only to the workers, but to the millions of Americans who use our airways.”
The pilot’s complaint alleged that the airline removed him from flight status on Aug. 23, 2007, pending an investigative hearing regarding a sudden spike in the pilot’s mechanical malfunction reports. Subsequently, the airline held an internal investigative hearing on Sept. 6, 2007, which lasted little more than 15 minutes.
One week later, the airline terminated the pilot’s employment, claiming that he did not satisfactorily answer a question regarding the spike in the number of malfunction reports he filed. OSHA found that the pilot did not refuse to answer any questions during the hearing, answers to questions were appropriate, and the action taken by the airline was retaliatory.
An investigation conducted under OSHA’s Whistleblower Protection Program determined that the pilot’s termination was a retaliatory act in violation of federal whistleblower provisions.
In addition to ordering the pilot’s reinstatement, OSHA also ordered AirTran to pay the pilot more than $1 million in back wages, interest, and compensatory damages.
“Airline workers must be free to raise safety and security concerns, and companies that diminish those rights through intimidation or retaliation must be held accountable,” said OSHA Assistant Secretary Dr. David Michaels. “Airline safety is of vital importance, not only to the workers, but to the millions of Americans who use our airways.”
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Have any of the FR pilots initiated a confidential incident reporting process such as exists elsewhere? Blaming the institutional 'culture' for potential risks rather than addressing them as a problem to be solved seems very unrealistic?
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There was a claim made that contractors are self-employed and have to make their own arrangements to transfer between home and their various places of work; and that this time is not calculated by RYR as duty time. If they were employees of RYR then it would be included in roster calculations. That difference seems curious. It must have some effect on the pilot.
It is said by RYR that they are self-employed, so that answers the question; but the transfer time is duty time for their own company and must be accounted for in their annual accounts. Self-employed people have to keep a record of their working hours, and travelling across borders, or considerable distances to a work place, is working time. As pilots you are allowed 2000 duty hours per 12 months and all the other various duty time limits over 7 days, 1 month, 3 months etc. They are employed by their own company to provide their services as pilots and so I would have thought they are responsible for abiding by FTL duty times in their company accounts.
I'm sure a question to IAA, CAA or the XAA's of any of the countries where pilots are based would clarify this matter. If it goes in the pilots' favour the cat would be amongst the pigeons I wonder what the truth is.
There are many airlines no using contractors, so this is not an isolated RYR matter.
It is said by RYR that they are self-employed, so that answers the question; but the transfer time is duty time for their own company and must be accounted for in their annual accounts. Self-employed people have to keep a record of their working hours, and travelling across borders, or considerable distances to a work place, is working time. As pilots you are allowed 2000 duty hours per 12 months and all the other various duty time limits over 7 days, 1 month, 3 months etc. They are employed by their own company to provide their services as pilots and so I would have thought they are responsible for abiding by FTL duty times in their company accounts.
I'm sure a question to IAA, CAA or the XAA's of any of the countries where pilots are based would clarify this matter. If it goes in the pilots' favour the cat would be amongst the pigeons I wonder what the truth is.
There are many airlines no using contractors, so this is not an isolated RYR matter.
Last edited by RAT 5; 16th Aug 2013 at 19:49.
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How about cabin crew trainers teaching in STN, staying in cheap company accommodation in Hahn at RYR training centre, jump seating to STN on first wave to teach, jumpseating back to HHN on last flight to sleep - potentially minimum expense to company. Times by several duty days.
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Silver, thanks for your reply. The Germans set up work councils where the bosses and unions had to work in a sprit of mutual trust. Call it forward thinking and hard work.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Ryanair pilots had Employee Representation Committees regarding amongst other matters conditions of employment and collective bargaining negotiations?
On the safety front. Channel 4 really made such a hatchet job of the facts and the reporter will win no awards for investigative journalism. They made n mention of how employees could air their concerns through the Ryanair Air Safety Committee or the Safety Alert Initial Reporting program or through Crew dock or the Flight Safety Officer or the Operational Flight Data Monitoring system or to the IAA. Strange.
Also, what's with the Ryanair Employee Share schemes? If the Channel 4 report held any water it would be preposterous to think any employees would be in such a share holding scheme.
One fact to all those I told you so, doom and gloom, wait for the crash people, ALL airlines are exposed to the risk of an aircraft accident. Some insure, some self insure some rely on a mix of both. Public perception on safety is paramount and that is why it is right that Ryanair are considering legal action against Channel 4 and that Goss rightly got the boot.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Ryanair pilots had Employee Representation Committees regarding amongst other matters conditions of employment and collective bargaining negotiations?
On the safety front. Channel 4 really made such a hatchet job of the facts and the reporter will win no awards for investigative journalism. They made n mention of how employees could air their concerns through the Ryanair Air Safety Committee or the Safety Alert Initial Reporting program or through Crew dock or the Flight Safety Officer or the Operational Flight Data Monitoring system or to the IAA. Strange.
Also, what's with the Ryanair Employee Share schemes? If the Channel 4 report held any water it would be preposterous to think any employees would be in such a share holding scheme.
One fact to all those I told you so, doom and gloom, wait for the crash people, ALL airlines are exposed to the risk of an aircraft accident. Some insure, some self insure some rely on a mix of both. Public perception on safety is paramount and that is why it is right that Ryanair are considering legal action against Channel 4 and that Goss rightly got the boot.
Last edited by Sober Lark; 16th Aug 2013 at 21:52.
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Should ANYONE be happy abut a non-unionised airline apart from the management and shareholders?
The unions had such a stranglehold on the Irish airports and EI that nothing moved or changed without their say-so. Some years ago they actually closed Dublin Airport altogether as they tried to force their way into FR. Thankfully, MOL stood firm.
EI's progress and need to reform was stymied time after time until someone with steel in the shape of Mr. M arrived and took them on. He even hired in FR aircraft to fill the void. The airline business is so volatile that change has to happen quickly - not wait 18 months while unions try to justify their existence and make exorbitant demands. The one thing that would finish FR off would be if unions get their unwanted noses in the door. Hopefully, it will never happen.
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Ryanair pilot sacked over role in documentary
The airline said in a statement that Captain John Goss, who has been with Ryanair for 27 years, had been dismissed for “gross misconduct” with immediate effect and was being sued for defamation.
Ryanair pilot sacked over role in documentary - The Irish Times - Thu, Aug 15, 2013
Ryanair pilot sacked over role in documentary - The Irish Times - Thu, Aug 15, 2013